Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sam.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: All right, welcome back to Sheboygan Stories unhoused and unheard. I'm your host, Scott Labonte.
Today's episode is something new for us because for the first time, we're sitting down with two professionals who work side by side inside the system that so many people see from the outside.
Joining me today is Morgan, who serves as the drug court coordinator, and Sam Awesome, a licensed therapist who works on her team and at Health and Human Services.
Together, they see an overlap between addiction, mental health, homelessness, trauma, and accountability every single day.
Today, they're here to pull back the curtain on what this work really looks like.
Thank you both for being here.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: Of course.
[00:01:01] Speaker C: Thanks for having us.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: All right, let's start with you.
What led you into this line of work?
[00:01:07] Speaker A: I guess I would say it really started when I look back at the trajectory of how everything has worked out in my life, it really started in high school. I saw a lot of individuals struggle with substances, and at that point, there wasn't many consequences, but eventually led them into the criminal justice system. And I really saw that they didn't get the help they needed back then.
And so I started with my education in criminal justice. And at that point, I was introduced. I did an internship through a probation office, and my probation agent that I was doing actually was the probation agent on treatment court.
So that really introduced me into that system. And so from there, I was really intrigued and dedicated to how this all works. And so I continued my education, and I was really devoted to. I wanted to be a part of it in some capacity. And how everything's just lined up is I ended up being able to, after all my schooling, step right into position of being a coordinator of treatment court. And it's just kind of evolved from there.
But, yeah, that's kind of how everything is lined up in my life.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: Was there anything that surprised you when you moved into the court system with what you do?
[00:02:33] Speaker A: Just the different entities, the red tape, the barriers that we all hit and how separate every part of the system is.
If you look at it as a whole, there's not a lot of teamwork going on, things like that. Things are very compartmentalized and separate. And so that really surprised me that the system wasn't working together.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: And I get that because we run into a lot of that as well, working with the homeless peers. You know, everybody's fighting the same battle, working towards fixing the issue that we have, but yet nobody seems to want to coordinate and actually mesh what you're doing to make it more effective. And it makes it difficult.
[00:03:11] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: All right, Sam, what led you into this work at Health and Human Services?
[00:03:17] Speaker C: I guess from my standpoint, I never imagined I'd be where I'm at. Just I originally, coming out of high school, was a physics major, and I had every intention of going to work for Lockheed and Martin on missiles and all kinds of other fun stuff. Every kid's dream, right? Playing with pyrotechnics and stuff. But, yeah, I ended up kind of just changed the course of my life. And I ended up in college, switching majors just to the way everything fell in line there. And I ended up working at a youth residential facility at the time, and that was 15 years ago that I began working in behavioral and mental health. And ever since then, I've just loved it. I've loved the opportunities and just being able to see people change.
And a couple of years ago, I was kind of at this crossroads in my life of whether I stick with this. I was a case manager prior to being. Being a therapist, and I was at a crossroads of whether I stick with this or go into a completely different field. And the doors just opened up naturally to step into therapy and schooling and really just to move into the role that I'm currently in. And it's just been a blessing just to be able to see people change, not only just in the therapy role, but also throughout the. The course of working as a group facilitator in a day treatment, working at the youth residential, and now even what I do as a therapist here, it's just been. It's been the driving factor going forward of moving into this role.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: Nice.
So what population do you work with the most, if I can ask?
[00:04:47] Speaker C: So I currently work with those that have struggled significantly with substance use disorders.
I have in the past worked with primarily severe and persistent mental illness. So schizophrenia, bipolar disorder. That was primarily my case management role. And then as working with youth, that was primarily with mostly like, behavioral conduct disorders or formerly conduct disorders.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: All right, so you two work on the same team, but from very different angles.
How do your roles intersect when it comes to recovery and accountability?
We were always really big on accountability at Pay It Forward, and I'm quite sure you are as well, and the way it ties in. Yes.
[00:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So with treatment court, we have a set of standards, rules, things like that. So I'm really the enforcer of. When I meet with my clients and the participants, I really.
We talk about how their week is going, things like that. If there's anything that they have maybe done that they Want to be honest about all that kind of stuff. And so they kind of sometimes in the first office that we're starting to find out maybe what they're struggling with, what's going on, maybe what's going good.
And fortunately, how our offices are set up. I am two offices away from Sam, and so typically, after we're able to staff and I can let him know, like, hey, this is kind of going on, and then he's able to make sure when they come to his office, they're able to help address that and kind of move forward from there.
But, yeah, that's kind of how our roles intersect with one another.
And again, we have a set of rules and standards in treatment court, but we're also highly focused on getting them on the right path and the track to have sustained sobriety and in recovery, but also giving them that structure that's going to help them succeed, even moving forward in life.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: I'm quite sure. Are you the one that deals with if they have community service or something to do as well?
[00:06:55] Speaker A: Yes, I have.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: So chances are pretty good that I have talked to you sometime in the past, because we used to get quite a few people that would come in and do some work.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: All right, so how often are you two working together on cases?
[00:07:08] Speaker C: So the primarily. My caseload is primarily treatment court individuals. So, I mean, she and I are communicating probably multiple times throughout a day about what we have going on with clients, where we sit with some of the things that we have going on in terms of, like where our roles intersect, especially as a therapist and stepping into this role, especially right out of college, it was a challenge for me because we talk about confidentiality and we talk about how do you support your consumers in the best possible way. But here we are as a team, where we have sanctions and we have opportunities for people to potentially even go to jail and what's being communicated. So it's definitely finding that balance of walking that line together because we do need information in the roles that we are in as a treatment court, because, again, we're a team, so we. We make informed decisions together. And definitely being able to have those conversations back and forth of my side as a treatment provider and then her side as the treatment court coordinator. It's definitely. It's multiple times a day that we're talking.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: All right, so from where you both sit, how often do addiction and mental health go hand in hand?
[00:08:21] Speaker A: I would say almost always.
We have a lot of codependency, diagnoses, and again, it's.
He can Speak to his line of work. But even my office, we're talking about both all the time. How do we support one, the other, how do we do it? Codependent, like dual, all that kind of stuff. It's very much intermeshed with everything.
[00:08:42] Speaker C: Yeah, I would agree.
I typically come at addiction from a different standpoint of adjusting the mental health first.
And typically when you start to resolve some of the mental health symptoms and some of the things that they've experienced in the past, the addiction slowly starts to fade away. So in my opinion, they typically come hand in hand with one another.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: Okay, so would that be. Would the addiction usually be the root issue or the symptom?
[00:09:09] Speaker C: That's always the question. What came first, the chicken or the egg?
[00:09:13] Speaker B: Hard to say.
[00:09:14] Speaker C: It is really hard to say. And really it's an individual basis for. For some people, it is the addiction that came first and then the mental health came after. For other people, it is the trauma that they've experienced or maybe some of the mental health symptoms just because of genetics or whatever else they have going on that that's really been an impact that's led into addiction to be able to deal with the symptoms and the challenges that they've had in life. So I'd say It's about a 50, 50 mix of what I've experienced of what comes first, the chicken or the egg.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Right.
How early do you often see the struggles in people's lives.
[00:09:49] Speaker C: In terms of addiction or in terms of when we get to work with them?
[00:09:54] Speaker B: Probably when you get to work with them.
[00:09:56] Speaker C: Okay.
I think in our role as treatment court, I think we've seen a very big mix of younger as well as older.
So I think that it's really, I guess a balance of, of when they're in their mid-20s to we have some that are in their later 50s, that it's just finally coming to a head. They finally gotten in trouble or they've been in enough trouble that they want things to change in their life. So lately I have had a bigger mix of younger 20 to 30 year olds that have had more challenges associated with addiction.
[00:10:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say most of the clientele we do see is usually 20s, 30s, but again, we do have a mixture where we do have some people in 40s, 50s that are kind of have had lived a life of maybe incarceration, substance use, things like that. And they do finally want to see that change. And so they want to take the opportunity of treatment court at that point. We are an adult court, so we have to. Has to be 18 or older. Right.
[00:11:01] Speaker B: All right, so for people who don't understand the drug court, can you explain what it actually is and what the goal is?
[00:11:08] Speaker A: Yeah. So drug court is we have national standards and we have state standards. So if you do, if you see a drug court in Sheboygan, then you go to our county, next door neighbor to Manitowoc, it is similar, but also very different. So I'll go from the basis of kind of what Sheboygan kind of looks like. So Sheboygan is a felony court. And so we only take individuals who have an open case that is a felony that is related to something with their substance use. It can be a variety of different charges, things like that. And from that point then is the case has to be open. And then the legal system, the DA's, the attorneys, the judges all have to be on board that they feel this person would benefit from our program.
And then I do a screening, they have to screen, and we have a screening that we have to do that basically scores them high risk, high need.
So they are high risk of potentially reoffending and they're in high need of treatment with a. Usually at that point it's significant severe substance use disorder. And so those two combined. So we do take the high risk, high need individuals. And so once that's all kind of complete, then they go through the system and then they are sentenced through the courts to our treatment court. And and with that they are also sentenced to probation. So we kind of have that two tier kind of line of work. And so that's kind of the premise of that. And then we have a robust team. And so treatment court is very unique in that we have different. Again, when I talked about the systems don't always work together, treatment court is very unique in that the systems work together. So we have a judge, we have a district attorney, a public defender, we, we have law enforcement that sits on our team, obviously treatment therapy. We have some mental health case managers, an employment specialist, and some other community members from like sober living, things like that. And so it's a really unique team. And so we have very different perspectives. And so that really helps us align all these systems together to help this person change their life and succeed.
And so that's kind of the basics of kind of what treatment court looks like. And then far as the program is voluntary, so some people would argue it's not, but it is. They have the choice to come in or not.
And so usually when they are sentenced, they are given an imposed and stayed sentence. So usually if they, they'll kind of know if they don't complete treatment court, they will go and serve this time in jail or prison. And so they're given that time ahead of time. So again, it's either can go sit that sentence or you can come into treatment court and maybe do some change in your life.
And then at that point, with rules and stuff like that, it is about. It's a minimum of 15 months in the program on average. We see usually a year and a half to two years that individuals are in our program just based on level of treatment.
Obviously it is not a straight road in recovery. And so you're going to have different paths, bumps to come over, things like that. So people are extended a little bit. But usually it's about a year and a half to two years that they're with us. And when they're in our program, they have a whole support system around them.
So it's a robust like you are, you can have someone that if you're struggling with employment, we have someone sit on our team that does employment. We have case management, they have me, they have therapy.
They have people that are really trying to guide them in the right direction. And again, we support the self choice and how they want to kind of do things, but we also kind of guide as well because they're at where they're at because they haven't made the best decisions on their own. And so they do need a little bit more guidance. And so it's a really overcoming that thing. And then it also breaks down with we have grants and things like that. And so they don't have to worry about paying for sober living, they don't have to worry about paying for residential. And so those barriers are so broken down, they can truly focus on them and what treatment they need and what they need to do to rebuild that foundation again without the worry of I can't afford that or I can't go do that because so and so. And so we kind of really try to break down a lot of those barriers that individuals that aren't in treatment court unfortunately face often.
And so that's kind of the premise of treatment court.
It's just very unique and it works.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: Right. That's a whole lot more than I ever knew.
And Sam, from the treatment side, what does your role look like within that structure?
[00:15:44] Speaker C: Yeah, so like we've been talking about, we're a team. We're always communicating and letting each other know where we're at with the interactions that we have with the participants that we have so as a treatment provider, treatment court is such a blessing because we have the opportunity if we find out there's a relapse right away. Within a couple of hours of them being at the ATI office, we're notified that there's been a relapse, and they're given the opportunity, obviously, to be able to have those conversations with us. But as a treatment provider, it's an opportunity to really reassess where that individual is at. It's an opportunity to have conversations about what were the challenges, what can we help you to get back on track? And when people are voluntary or maybe they're not necessarily part of the treatment program, we have to wait sometimes weeks, sometimes even a month or so before those individuals come in and say, hey, I relapsed.
So there's been weeks, days of chaos that's really occurred for the individual, and they feel like there's no hope. So as a treatment provider on the drug court team, it's really just amazing to see, like, the opportunity to intervene sooner rather than later, where we know that a lot of people, they don't have that opportunity to engage with treatment right away just because. Because of the way the system's established or the wait list for meeting with your provider is so long. We make space in our. In my caseload as a treatment provider to be able to see people within that week of whenever there is a relapse. So as soon as it's happened, like, one of the first things that Morgan will do is she'll reach out to me and say, hey, when can you get in and see so and so we've had challenges, and it's not even just the relapses, but also just the other life challenges that happen. And we know that most addiction isn't just about the drugs and alcohol. It's about the lifestyle that they lead. So it's an opportunity to intervene when they've lost their house or they've lost their job so that they don't revert back to some of the unhealthy coping habits they've had before.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: We've noticed a lot since, like, we've closed and stuff. And there was the lack of stability and structure daily, you know, from the 7am to 7pm Whatever. We've noticed a lot of our peers have really spiraled, really kind of reverted back to old habits, unfortunately, you know, and that's especially with the colder weather, you know, no place to go. It makes it a little bit more difficult, which I would imagine keeps you guys a little bit More busy.
[00:18:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think too with our team, like a lot of these individuals that come to us, their support systems broken down, they maybe have people that rightfully so maybe need to set some boundaries and things like that. And so they're coming into a team that is in their corner and they know they have at least on hand, five people to reach out to. And so we really build that support system in the beginning and then in our program we really focus on, okay, we're your support system now. And then towards the end of the, I would say the last like six months or so is when we really strike to start to try to get them to build that support system outside of us as they're rebuilding those connections and repairing some things. And so that towards the end they're relying less on us. And then when they graduate, we kind of take a step back and they are able to have that robust support system again. But a lot of people, when they come into our program, their support system is broken and they've burned a lot of those bridges. And people are, in sense sometimes don't understand addiction or just really fed up with them in and out of the system. What they're just that ripple effect of what addiction can do to families and or support systems. And so that's really positive thing about our team as well is again, that barrier of they have at least a team of people that are in their corner at all times.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: Nice.
So this podcast, we talk a lot about homelessness, basically what it's centered around.
So how does homelessness or unstable housing impact recovery or treatment?
[00:19:35] Speaker A: It's huge.
We.
A lot of people that I screen when they're coming in, whether they're in custody or maybe they just got out, a lot of times they're saying, I will talk about, do you have a place to live when you get out of here? Like, what does your housing look like? A lot of them say, I'm homeless.
And we've had people come into our program that sometimes if sober living isn't that available, they are homeless for a little bit. We try to structure all that, but it's hard for someone to focus on their recovery and building that foundation when they don't even have a roof over their head.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: Right. When they're in survival mode, essentially.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And so what I'm grateful for with treatment court, like I said, one of the barriers you break down is we are able to contract with a sober living house and finance that for these individuals so that they do have that focus. And we see such success when Again, they have just that roof over their head and they're able to, to really focus on them, get to treatment, get to their meetings, all that kind of stuff, and stabilize and maybe get employment, build that foundation first financially, and then maybe we can push them on to go to their next step, whatever that may be in that housing. But it impacts it huge.
[00:20:46] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. You know, we had worked with that quite a bit too, trying to, you know, secure jobs. We'd worked with a couple different organizations that were, you know, if we had somebody that, that we had vetted or whatever, we could send them out. And before they would let them go for whatever reason, they'd reach out to us saying, hey, we're having an issue with so. And so is doing this or whatever.
Can you talk to them? Can you kind of help this? We need to get this fixed. And so we would do that. We'd pull the person aside, say, hey, we're struggling a little bit. What can we do? Can we step up a little bit?
You're at risk of not being there anymore, and we're trying to build your life back up. We're trying to get you back into the workforce. And I know a lot of that, there was trauma involved in that and there was, you know, possibly mental issues and addiction issues.
I noticed a lot of the peers we worked with, anxiety was huge. You know, I can't do that. I can't be around people, you know, and I get that because I've seen all too often that they get, I don't want to say kicked around, but kicked around, you know, treated like garbage. And it's hard. And you can only take that so long before it really impacts your mental health and your well being.
And that's, you know, I can see where the anxiety would come in and people are like, I can't do that. So that is awesome that you guys work with that too.
[00:22:05] Speaker C: Yeah. One of the biggest things we always push for the people that we work with in treatment court and just with addiction in general, is you got to change people, you got to change places, you got to change things.
And when you look at like, from a homelessness standpoint, many of the people that are homeless, they're going back to the same situations that they know from before. So they're going back to those people that they used to use with, even though they have no desire to engage with using anymore. I mean, you surround yourself with a bunch of people that are using. Sooner or later you're going to end up falling back into that type of setting. So that's one of the biggest challenges, especially when they're starting out in treatment court and there's a lack of resources. They're not able to get into residential right away or whatever the situation may be is we see them turn back into those same settings based off of, oh, I need a couch to stay on. Well, I can call so and so because that's all I know.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: But knowing that may be an unsafe place or put you back into the situation that you're trying to get out of, but it is a warm place to be or it is off the streets and therefore you choose that which.
[00:23:01] Speaker C: It'S somewhere that they feel that they can have some level of control. They know what to expect, like you said, reducing some of that anxiety so that they can feel that they're comfortable and they're not constantly in that fight or flight mode.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: And my wife is a life coach, whatever she calls it. Your critter brain kicks in and it's the comfort level.
This is what you're used to. So that's what you fall back into.
[00:23:19] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: If you could both correct one myth that the community believes about addiction, mental illness, or people in the system, what would it be?
This one's kind of a big one.
[00:23:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I had to think about this on.
There's definitely different things. For me, the first thing that comes to mind is the myth of that these individuals choose this life, whether it is the people that we deal with, it's substance use, and then usually that substance use ends up in this system. And so majority of people that come in my life or in my office, I would say almost all of them, they have a, they didn't choose this life, they don't want this life.
But again, that comfort that this is all they've known for so long and they don't know how to get out of it. And our systems in general aren't easy to navigate and they don't have people to help navigate them because most likely, again, this isn't just this generation. It goes generations to generations. And so the family, this is what they grew up with knowing. And again, it's just the biggest thing for me is when I hear that of, well, they chose this, they're choosing this. They are not. They are not. I can tell you the amount of tears in my office, the amount of desperation and motivation of like, I don't want to live this anymore, but how do I get out of it? And that guidance. And so that is the biggest thing that irks me when I hear some.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: I put A lot of stuff out on social media. And that's one of the biggest things I get back. Well, they chose this.
And I often. My rebuttal on that is, I challenge you to go anywhere downtown and find one person living on the street that actually has chosen this lifestyle. I said, you know, they may be complacent with it. They may be, you know, perfectly. I've been at this so long, it is what it is. I'm okay with it at this point. That doesn't mean that that's where they want to be, you know, and it's frustrating the amount of people that, well, it's their own fault they're out there and sorry.
[00:25:21] Speaker C: I mean, I'm very much the same way as Morgan is. Nobody sets out to be addicted. Nobody chooses to live this life of constantly seeking drugs or constantly trying to find something that's going to help you feel good.
And to go even further with that, you can just shut that off once it's been established. And a lot of people, there's such a misunderstanding of addiction is that I always tell the people that I work with is, you did how many years of getting to this point now? Sometimes we got to do that many years to unwind all of the things that you've done.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: You didn't get to this point overnight. So coming back from that point is not going to be a quick fix.
[00:25:56] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:25:57] Speaker B: You know, and a lot of people don't quite understand that. They want, you know, I call it the microwave Society. You want stuff right now. Yeah, it doesn't happen that way.
[00:26:04] Speaker C: Many people, they choose to use drugs or alcohol the first time. Absolutely right. But as life happens and you associate the drugs and the alcohol with the situations that you're involved in, then it becomes normal for those who just be there all the time. I always like to tell the people that I work with, like, if you think about the things that you have in your life, if you think about your home, there are certain things that if they were missing, you wouldn't. You wouldn't know what to do with yourself. If you were to walk into your home and be like, oh, my couch is gone, right? What do I do? Where do I sit? And the same thing is true for addiction is over time, people have gotten so used to the drugs and the alcohol being there that once they're removed, it's a level of uncomfortability that they don't know how to handle. They don't know how to express it. They don't want it to be there right now. Granted it's a little different than the couch. Absolutely. But they don't want the drugs and the alcohol to be there. They want something else to be there. They just don't know what that something else can be.
[00:26:57] Speaker A: Right.
[00:26:57] Speaker B: And I had interviewed a couple people and one of the things that kind of stuck with me at one point, one of the gentlemen that I spoke with said amongst the population, the community of the unhoused, the drug use is not by any ill intent, but a case of hey, I can see you're feeling down today or you're not right. Here, take this, this will help. You know, and it's not for, you know, to keep you addicted, to keep you on that path, but knowing that you're struggling. And hey, this works for me. So you take this and so you do. And that just keeps you in that cycle.
And he said it's just, it happens because that's what they do. Because he said in a way it's because they're looking out for you, but at the same time it's hurting you. And he said it's a really tough spot to be. Yeah.
[00:27:46] Speaker C: Once you start to associate emotions with feeling better, especially those negative emotions that we don't like to endure, right. Grief, sadness, anxiety, fear, all of those things that would, that aren't typically emotions we want to have to experience and then you associate them with something positive so you can numb them or you can experience something that is better than experiencing those negative emotions. It's natural that it's going to be hard to get away from that.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Oh absolutely.
[00:28:14] Speaker A: And I, when we talk about it's not fixed overnight, things like that. And that's why when sometimes I tell people this program is two years long, they like wide eyed me like what? But again, at two years, even when we're graduating people, it's like they just have a foundation they haven't even touched. Some things that we do that they are going to have to continue to touch on. And, and so that is, that just shows that this isn't an easy fix. It's not going to be overnight. It even a program that is so robust as ours and we have all the support, things like that, it still takes two years and then some when they graduate our program because again for our program, for you to graduate, it's really just you've shown that stability, you have that foundation that you can now build on that and you don't need all of us around you.
And so that again just shows that this isn't an overnight fix. And a lot of people want that.
[00:29:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:07] Speaker A: But because it takes a lot of work to get there. But like Sam said, you have to put it back on. Like it took you how long to get to this point. It's going to take a lot of steps to unwind and take those steps and climb that mountain again to build a solid foundation.
[00:29:21] Speaker B: And there's a lot of, lot of steps to get you out of that hole that you've dug yourself into.
[00:29:25] Speaker A: Yep. Yes.
[00:29:27] Speaker B: So this is what this is. One of this is. This work is heavy.
You're dealing with trauma, relapse, crisis and unfortunately even sometimes death.
What do you do to protect your own mental health and not burn out?
[00:29:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
There are a few things that come to my mind. I am very fortunate here that we have a really supportive team and unit and I know that I'm able to just go to them and say like I'm working on this really hard case or I had to have to dealt with this today. And we're very much, we can lean on each other and help with that. I would say really outside of work, it's finding those fun hobbies, things like that. For me it's taking my dog by the lake and just having those calm moments. And again, it's easier said than done. But when I leave these doors, I leave it here and I really try to not. I make a really intentional effort of leaving it here and not bringing it away, bringing it home and into the that part of my life. But again, that comes with some of the hobbies that I just really enjoy doing and making sure that I'm staying on top of that and connecting with other individuals. Like I said, my unit is super supportive. And then I do have a very strong support system outside with family and friends and they all know what I do. And so there are times when maybe I want to go out to dinner. My friends know, like we keep it light hearted. We just, we have a fun time. We're not going to be talking about some deep stuff or anything like that or how was work going? Like they made that question because they know that that is my time to just kind of keep it light and.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: Keep it where it needs to be.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: Yes. And keeps it where it needs to be. And so yeah, that's kind of what's worked for me in the past. And obviously it's evolving over time. There's things that I'm sure I haven't heard in my office yet or have felt yet, things like that. And it's just going to keep evolving over time.
[00:31:22] Speaker C: Yeah, this Is a constant battle.
I said earlier that I was at a crossroads earlier, and this is one of the reasons, is because it is very heavy, the work that we do. And it's. A lot of the people that work in this field, I won't say all, but most of them, they do the work because they want to see people succeed. And when you don't see people succeed, and sometimes it's about our own expectations, but. But when we don't see them succeed, whether it be our own expectations or they just fail or whatever reason, it hurts and it's a challenge. But I definitely have done a lot of personal work in terms of taking care of myself to be able to continue to do the work that I do. First and foremost, God has been at the front of my life for the last seven years now. That's been the driving factor of my faith.
And my relationship with him has definitely kept me protected in the world. Work that I do.
And most of our unit knows that just based off of me. But.
But that. That's first and foremost, but also the support system that I have outside of. Outside of work as well as at work. Like she said, our unit has been amazing. Anytime we've had a situation that arises, they're the first ones to surround us, to check in on us. Even if it's outside of work, they'll reach out.
Even if we don't think they know, they typically know. So they're. They're able to reach out to us and have conversations just to help us in some way, shape or form. And then again, having the things outside of work. For me, work stays at work. As soon as I'm done with work, I don't want that to be there.
A couple of years ago, I was working with youth at the time, and I had gone home with my son. My wife and I were working opposite shifts, but I got done with work. I picked him up from daycare and we got home, we were playing outside, and all of a sudden my son walks up to me and. And he goes, here, dad, this is for you. And he handed me one of those little ninja action figures that you get out of the corner machine. What's this for, buddy? He goes, he can hold all that weight for you. And I was just like that. Just hit.
[00:33:19] Speaker B: I was just gonna say that that would be it right there.
[00:33:20] Speaker C: It melted me and it hit me so hard. Ever since that day, like, I've been very intentional to make sure that work stays at work. And for the longest time in my truck, I would actually have that action figure. So anytime I was about to leave work or not even leave work, but before I went in home or before I picked it, my family up or whatever it was, I'd make sure that the work was resting on him versus necessarily taking it home with me and then getting in the next day. All right, let's deal with it.
[00:33:46] Speaker B: Let's pick it up again. Let's go.
[00:33:47] Speaker C: I can take care of it, but I've been able to move away from that just because of the intentionality of being able to do that over time. And it's definitely been helpful to be able to manage it in some way, shape or form.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: And that is a definite necessity to be able to do. Yeah, we ran into that a lot with the peers and stuff that we worked with. It's hard to leave it at home because, you know, we'd get a phone call 10 o' clock at night or a text from somebody, hey, I need a blanket. I need. Do you have any food? Do you have. You know, so we're running back out. We're doing, you know, it's like, tell the wife, okay, I'll be back in a few minutes. Because when once it got past a certain time, it's like, I'm going, you know, so it'd be running 10 o', clock, 11 o' clock at night, I'm running blankets, outdoor food or something.
It is what it is.
[00:34:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:30] Speaker C: That's been one of the biggest things, is boundaries. Again. I love to support the people and care for the people that I work alongside. And prior to being a therapist, I was a case manager. So we had access to cell phones and more communications with the clients that we work with. And that that was a huge driving factor to potentially being burnt out at one point, because again, it's 6:30 at night, you're just about to leave after dealing with a crisis, and then you get another message from another, another client. You're like, oh, I could respond to that quickly. But over time I've learned, like, it, five o' clock's here. I'm. I'm done with therapy. I got to be able to set it aside. I can't support after that. I need to be able to have that time for myself so that again, I could have my cup filled up.
[00:35:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think with our team too, like, we're really intentional with our clients because we all know, like, those boundaries and things like that. And we're really intentional of our clients knowing, like, if after hours they have a support system, whether it's in A recovery community or law enforcement is highly involved. And we have had people contact law enforcement or stop in and talk to someone.
And we have ATI that they can reach out to on the weekends. And so we make sure that we have some of that so that it isn't on us and we aren't feeling like what's going to happen tonight because no one's going to be available. We really educate our clients on.
They have an understanding. For me, at 4 o', clock, my phone's off and it we're not in here. They know who to reach out to if they need to, things like that, or they are provided in therapy, coping skills or at least tools to get them through the morning until we're back in the office and things like that. So I think as a team, we do a really good job too, for that helps our mental health is providing that to our clients as well. Those resources and those contacts and things like that to really help with that.
[00:36:16] Speaker B: It took us a little while, but we did eventually develop those boundaries and, you know, this is it. Sorry at this point.
We'll see you tomorrow.
[00:36:23] Speaker C: It's growing pains, especially when you're starting out something new again, getting into it because you want to be able to help people.
So, yeah, definitely. It's definitely for myself over time, right.
[00:36:32] Speaker B: It was a struggle. It really was trying to find that balance and, you know, where we were content with it yet knowing, you know, well, it may be a little uncomfortable for them and probably for us, but we'll survive.
So we talked a little bit about succeeding and getting out of the program. So when somebody does succeed, when they graduate drug court or stabilize mentally, what does that actually look like?
[00:36:59] Speaker C: I think it takes shape for everybody in a different way. And having been part of drug court, I think just being a treatment provider, right. We always have expectations of what we hope for somebody. But as you get to work with them more and they start to figure out what it is that they want in their recovery journey and what they would like to incorporate in their life moving forward.
It takes such a different shape for each and every person.
And for me as the treatment provider, my goal is to help them to be able to rebound. I don't expect the treatment core participants that we work with to be sober for the rest of their lives. I would love that for them and I would love that opportunity for them. But one, I know the nature of addiction and I know that life happens and challenges happen. And my goal is to help them establish the resources, the supports, the coping skills, whatever it is so that if they do have that situation that happens where they struggle, whether it be relapse, whether it be just sucking at life sometimes that they're able to bounce back in a way to help them go forward versus fall back into what they know.
And for those that we've seen graduate from the treatment court program that I've seen, that's what we've seen from them is instead of responding with using more and making this a week long thing, it's a one off thing. They're reaching out to their supports or getting back into where they need to be to have those conversations to help them get back on track versus falling back into the lifestyle they live.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: And we're human, we all trip and fall, we all ha, you know, we all make mistakes. The important is how you deal with and move on.
[00:38:32] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:38:33] Speaker A: Yeah. I would definitely piggyback off that for me. I think as a team we always discuss too and for me personally, success looks different in everyone. And we have to remember that we have people that by the end of the program they maybe have bought a house, they have done all these big things and to some people it's their success is they have time management now and they're able to get to their job on time, they're able to hold a job and sometimes it just. We have to remember success looks different in everyone and that we should all be celebrated. And to piggyback off what Sam says too, before someone graduates, I always have the conversation and I remind our team too that because when we hear someone graduates and then we hear that they, because they're usually still on probation, that maybe they're not doing the greatest and things like that.
For me, sometimes team members get a little bit disgruntled about that. But I'm the same way with Sam is I really take it as what's their rebound. They're not in a cycle, hopefully they can get out of it and they're not adding back up in the system again.
And they're able to, we gave them the tools and resources. They know who to reach out to. They know if they have maybe stopped therapy, they know that contact info to reach out to health and human Services saying hey, I need to get back into therapy. What does this look like? They have all of that, that they're able to get back on track way quicker than they ever were before.
And we hope for, like Sam said, we hope for sustained recovery and that they're able to do complete absence, but it's just not reality for most people.
And so our goal is, especially when we have someone that's 25 years old, they have a whole lot of life to live and a whole lot of things that are going to continue to happen in their life that are hard for anyone to handle. And we hope that they don't go back to old ways, but that could happen. And so our hope is that they know who to reach out to so that they don't end up again, either on a week or two week, or even, like I said, back into the system again, where they're caught up in the system and those kind of things. And so that's kind of our hope and goal to kind of see with them.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: Awesome.
So if our community truly wanted to support recovery and mental health, what would you both want to see happen?
[00:40:45] Speaker C: This was the hard one for us. We were talking about.
[00:40:46] Speaker B: I kind of figured that. I always like to leave one.
[00:40:49] Speaker C: I think for me, there's a couple different things. One, we were just talking before about the Powerball, because it's like 1.5 billion, what we do with it. And we both said we'd probably start a treatment center in some way, shape or form, because we know that that's such a huge resource that's lacking here in so many different ways, and treatment could take so many different shapes.
But for me, the biggest thing and then the work that I do is, is the community support and being able to understand that if people struggle with addiction, that's what they need. They need that support of people, and it can take so many different shapes. I always joke with our participants. I run our intensive outpatient group, so three times a week for three hours, I have them for that whole period. And talking about community supports, I always joke with them like, I don't care if you go down to the senior center and get involved down there, there. It's about finding that group of people that you can be around that help build you up, that are there to support you, that are willing to encourage you to just do better in life. And again, due to the stigma surrounding addiction, a lot of people get written off and they get run off of. Oh, they are using or they're high, we're not going to engage with them. When in all reality, that's what they need, is they need an opportunity to engage with somebody that's going to help drag them out of that kicking and screaming sometimes and drag them out of that situation that they're in to show them that there's something better. So, to me, the biggest thing would be for education to be Able to understand addiction further and know that community support is such a big thing in terms of recovery.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: Yeah, for me, two words come to my mind is welcoming and understanding. So again, welcoming them, like if they're applying for a job or applying for a house, things like that, and having understanding that there is a story behind all this and it's not just what's on paper and trying to understand where they're at, where they want to be, what they're doing in that moment to be able to get there and give them that chance. We always see a lot of double edged swords. Especially like we were talking about housing before. I mean our individuals, unfortunately they have criminal backgrounds and they also, some have evictions because of their criminal backgrounds and because of their substance use. And so just trying to understand whether. And I always say treatment court is always willing to write letters and say they are doing all this, they're trying to get back on track, they have accountability and having the community just be more understanding of again, they don't. They didn't choose this life. They are trying to change their trajectory, change that path. And it starts with doors being open. And can you please be one of those doors that will open for them?
Yes, it could be. You're gonna see maybe some setbacks. But again, that's where that understanding comes from is it's gonna not be complete success and things like that. There's gonna be some bumps in the road.
But again, I'll say the other word again is understanding. Just understanding where these people are at, where they're coming from and try to just open that door, be that one door that gives them that little bit of hope of someone sees me and they're willing to help me out in this way. Whether it's employment or housing or any kind of.
[00:43:59] Speaker B: I always try to tell people, you know, like with unhoused, with, I guess, whatever, it doesn't define you. That's not who. It's a circumstance you're in, you know. But all too often, Sam, as you had mentioned, people often look at you and just write you off. And that happens all too often. But that's not the case. You know, everybody deserves a second chance or third or, you know, however many it takes to get out of that and they get their life back on track.
[00:44:27] Speaker C: Absolutely. A lot of times everybody looks at life in black and white.
[00:44:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:44:31] Speaker C: But life is so far from black and white. And when we come to look at addiction, it operates in that gray area. So often it's about that trajectory of what change is happening. And unfortunately, sometimes that change is very small.
[00:44:45] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:44:45] Speaker C: But we have to be willing to get to know the person, to be able to see that change slowly occur.
[00:44:51] Speaker B: Over time and build that trust and that relationship. Because nothing is happening until you get that.
We were familiar with that as well. You know, until they let you into their world, nothing changes.
[00:45:01] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:01] Speaker B: And that can be sometimes difficult.
[00:45:03] Speaker C: Yeah. Trust is definitely one of the hardest things to establish. Again, you're working with a population that has been grounded in criminal behavior for most of their lives. That, again, they're living day to day in that fight or flight mode. Who's gonna take advantage of me? How am I gonna take advantage? Whatever that may look like. And again, you have to be willing to stick it out and show them that, one, you do trust them. And that, two, you can trust them, too.
[00:45:27] Speaker B: Right.
I truly cannot thank you two enough for doing this, for sitting down with me today. You see people at their lowest and still choose to believe in the highest.
To anyone listening who may be struggling with addiction, mental health, or homelessness, you're not alone and you're not beyond help.
If this episode moved you, please share it. These conversations matter.
Until next time, keep your heart open and pay it forward.
[00:46:03] Speaker A: Sam.
