When Helping Gets Complicated

[00:00:23] Speaker A: Oh, hello and welcome. Today's episode is a little different. It's Kathleen and me sitting down for an honest conversation about something that hit pretty close to home recently, as anybody that's on social media probably had seen. We were approached about a proposed new day center here in Sheboygan. And while we fully support more help for our peers, the way the situation unfold kind of left us a whole lot to think about. And so we figured we would take to this platform to kind of explain it a little bit. It did create quite the stir, quite the controversy online, and it wasn't intended for that. It was just intended to bring light to it. But we know through printed media, stuff like that, it does not portray any emotions, any actual feelings. It's hard to get an idea of what was behind it. Before we begin, though, I want to be very, very clear about something. This conversation is not meant to attack, not meant to discredit or discourage anyone who's trying to help. We truly believe that the more people who care, the better. What we share today is simply our lived experience, what we've learned through our years of running a day center, walking alongside our peers, and navigating the very real challenges that come with this work. Our goal is transparency, not division. It's education, not conflict. And above all, it's continued compassion for the people that we care about. This work is complicated. It's emotional, and it matters. So today, we're pulling back the curtain a little. Not to create division, but to create understanding. Welcome to jboygan. Stories unhoused and unheard. All right, so kind of going back to what I had started with a little bit with that intro. Anybody that follows any kind of anything on social media or follows us on social media had seen we were approached by a church about potentially opening another day center here in Sheborgan. What was initially communicated out to me was that they were looking to replicate what we did. Kind of took me by surprise. Okay. And this came as a. Through a Facebook message. Message. This was not a phone call. This was not a face to face. This was a Facebook message. 9:30 on a Saturday night. [00:03:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:13] Speaker A: Kind of took the wind out of my sails at first, and. But I guess not really for what you would think. It wasn't. You know, you can jump in however you want on this. I was looking at this as somebody was looking to come in, which is awesome. I appreciate that. I'm glad somebody's willing to step up and jump in. However. [00:03:44] Speaker B: Okay, I need to clarify something. So today we're recording this on Saturday, on December 13th. So today is five years since my husband walked in the room and said, I did something I may need your help with. So the one consistent thing we have been told from day one, when we started doing this, because our Facebook page, anybody who was part of our Facebook group, when we started, it was a giant shit show. It was chaos from the word go. [00:04:20] Speaker A: It was hard to follow as we. [00:04:22] Speaker B: Found our groove and got things going those first few months. The one thing that has always been said is pick your lane and stay in it. The second thing that has always been said is don't duplicate services that others are already providing. [00:04:42] Speaker A: What doesn't make any sense to correct. [00:04:45] Speaker B: Like, why would you. So we were. We were super diligent about not doing that. [00:04:52] Speaker A: Right. [00:04:53] Speaker B: We were like, we didn't provide resources that somebody else was already providing. We connected people to the resources that somebody else was already providing because why. Why make more work? So when this. When Scott told me about the message, my first thought was, yay, our peers will have a place to go during the day when it's cold out because we're not open. I worry, like, days like today, days like tomorrow, Sunday, when it's going to. [00:05:27] Speaker A: Be super and there's no place to. [00:05:28] Speaker B: Go, worries me a lot. So my first thought was, yay. My second thought was, what the. [00:05:39] Speaker A: Right. Are we chopped liver at this point? [00:05:43] Speaker B: Right, right. I mean, we've been pretty clear that we're on a break because we don't know what to do because we don't have a space that allows us to. To do what we do. [00:05:53] Speaker A: And I thought we had been very clear over the past few months that the only reason that we are closed and that we are not doing what this day center or not doing what we truly love to do is because we don't have a space. It wasn't because we just felt like stopping, felt like dropping out of society. That's not it. Is it tiring work? Is it exhausting? Is it life consuming? Absolutely. To say that we were not exhausted beyond belief would be untrue. It takes every bit of energy, every bit of, you know. But it was a labor of love. And as tired, as tiring as it is, or was, and as tiring and as chaotic as it was, I'd do it all over again in a heartbeat. Because there was a few people that had commented on the. On the Facebook post about, well, it wasn't because you don't have a space. It's because you guys were tired and needed to step back. Yeah. We were tired. But had our space on Erie AB not closed, none of this would be happening right now. [00:07:00] Speaker B: Or had the. The other proposed space at Catholic Charities. Had that worked out, we'd. We'd still be going. We never would have missed a beat. We'd still be going. [00:07:15] Speaker A: All right. So when this was proposed to me through that Facebook message, it was proposed. You know that there are a couple things in mind, stuff that we had talked about along the way that we were going to incorporate. We were looking to. We were looking to have like, laundry facilities. We were looking to have places that they can store their stuff. Although we did. On, we had that area. We did have lockers and stuff. We had that. That people could put their stuff in and walk around town without their backpacks, without their wagons. [00:07:47] Speaker B: And we had the laundry room donated. [00:07:49] Speaker A: We were there. We were getting to that. [00:07:51] Speaker B: I mean, we were. We were in that process when the scuttlebutt came about that the city may be condemning the building. [00:07:59] Speaker A: So we stopped. [00:08:00] Speaker B: We stopped because I wasn't gonna put tons of money into plumbing when we were gonna get the boot, right? [00:08:12] Speaker A: So then as I responded back to this person through Facebook messenger, because that's the way it was initially proposed to me, and I told her right out, I said, you know, I have to tell you, I said, this is a little difficult to respond to. And I thought I did a pretty decent job of explaining to her why, you know, pretty much explaining to her that we are still very much an active non profit organization and the only reason we are closed is simply because we don't have a space. And I felt like they were pushing us aside and trying to kind of step. I don't want to say step over us, step around us, whatever it is, and do their own thing. And then at the last minute came like, oh, maybe we should ask these guys how to do this, because we don't know. There's a whole lot that goes into this and we'll get into that a little bit later on in this. But it was hard to process. And I had promised everybody from day one, anybody that follows us, anybody that knows anything about us, I promised 100% transparency with pay it forward. Anything that went very well. Anything that did not go good, I put it out there because. Because we all deserve to know that, you know, celebrate our successes and, oh, shit, our downfalls. You know, it is what it is. But I believe in putting everything out there. Nothing that happened was in secrecy. And so by my nature, and I'm. Well, I was an English Major in college and I'm a school teacher. So I write. That's what I do. I put stuff out. And it kind of took them by surprise that I put this out there, which kind of, I guess I chuckled about him. Like, you obviously know nothing about me. If you did, you would have known this was coming, right? [00:10:09] Speaker B: Because he puts everything out there with me sitting in the background going, why did you do that? Why did you do that? [00:10:16] Speaker A: Do you realize the shitstorm you just created by putting that out there? I'm like, yes, but people I believe. And if I'm wrong, somebody please tell me, you know, if I'm putting too much stuff out there, if it's to the point, like, I don't give a shit what you guys are up to at this point, I don't want to know. Let me know, Send me a Facebook message, text me something. [00:10:37] Speaker B: Well, it's. If they don't want to know, they don't have to follow us. It's that easy. It's a choice, right? [00:10:45] Speaker A: But I believe people, I don't know, maybe I'm looking into it wrong. I don't know. So kind of going back, I know we get a little sidetracked here, but going back, first thoughts were, you know, okay, other than the knee jerk reaction of holy shit, they're just not staying in their lane and completely bypassing us was they have no idea what they're doing. And not to sound rude or heartless, but no idea what you're getting yourself into. I think the warming center found that out the hard way, you know, getting into it. And I guess I don't mean anything bad against our peers. They're no different than the rest of us, but like anybody else, give them an inch and they take a foot. And without consistency, without accountability, it does come back to bite you in the ass. And I guess those are lessons learned the hard way. So then somewhere along the lines of this, Kathleen did agree to go to the church and sit and meet with this woman that reached out to me, find out, I guess, what it was all about, find out what questions, answer these questions, help them whatever way that we could. [00:12:10] Speaker B: Well, yeah, because in the end, it comes down to it doesn't. It doesn't matter if it's us or if it's somebody else or. All that mattered was having a place open so our peers could be safe. And if, if I could answer questions and be helpful in any way, then I'm going to do that regardless of my personal feelings, right? Because I'm going to do that the. [00:12:37] Speaker A: Only, the only ones. [00:12:38] Speaker B: That's not about us. [00:12:39] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:39] Speaker B: And we've said that from day one. It's not about, it's not about us. But, you know, we do have feelings. So whether it's about us or not, you still, you still need to process what's going on. [00:12:59] Speaker A: And it hit me a little harder than I had expected, you know, because, I mean, I was, in all honesty, you know, I'm going to throw it out there. When we opted to walk away from the Salvation army basement, when we determined that that didn't work and we were going to shut down our operations indefinitely, that hit hard, that I struggled hard with that. [00:13:28] Speaker B: I mean, he still does. [00:13:30] Speaker A: I still do. I have serious issues with that. Especially on days like today and tomorrow when it's supposed to be bitter cold and our peers have no place to go. And I don't know, I've had lots of sleepless nights, I've had lots of tears, lots of internal battles with this. So it hit hard. It really kind of. I felt like I was being kicked while we were down. But then at some point, then we received a phone call. [00:14:09] Speaker B: This, mind you, all of this, everything that we are talking about happened within 36ish hours. [00:14:17] Speaker A: Yes, everything. Right. It went from 0 to 100 back to 0 in 36 hours. Right. And we were like, holy shit, what happened? [00:14:27] Speaker B: Right. Well, between 9:15 or 9:20 on Saturday night, when you receive the message, I walked out of the church at like 03:45 or 04:00 clock on Monday after the meeting. [00:14:42] Speaker A: Right. And that was pretty much the last we'd heard of it. [00:14:46] Speaker B: Yeah, we haven't heard anything since. [00:14:48] Speaker A: Probably at this point they're like, why? Telling them anything or asking him anything. Not going to. [00:14:53] Speaker B: And that is not because. I don't feel that's because of anything that we did wrong. [00:15:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:15:03] Speaker B: I mean, it might be we may not have heard anything because you went to social media and said, you know, we wish them well. We got some clarification. [00:15:13] Speaker A: Right. [00:15:14] Speaker B: It's not what we are doing or we're doing. [00:15:19] Speaker A: But that's what I do. I put stuff out there I know and some people don't agree with and I've had a few people, you know, reach out and ask who and where and you know, I comment on it. It is not my place to say it is legit. Not my place if or when this comes to fruition, when they decide to do this. [00:15:39] Speaker B: Well, I will, after being in the meeting, I won't, I won't hesitate to say that they're probably scared to come out and put. I mean, they were very early in the talks, and I don't know what their church decided, what they didn't. Like I said, we haven't heard anything, but they're probably scared to put it out there because the people who support us, they might get backlash from them. And I don't want. [00:16:03] Speaker A: Please don't do that. [00:16:04] Speaker B: I don't want that at all. We need all of our followers to know. I don't. I do not want that. And even with Scott putting everything out there, you know, the. The frustration wasn't about another center existing or doing it. It was about how the situation was represented to us. Like, that is probably the most confusing 36 hours I've sat through. Like, I literally walked out of the church meeting without any more. Without any more clarification than I had before I went in. [00:16:45] Speaker A: Right. She got home and she's like. [00:16:46] Speaker B: And I didn't answer any questions. So I don't understand why. [00:16:51] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:52] Speaker B: I don't know. It was confusing. But, you know, like, I started to say before, you know, the first thing you're told is, pick your lane and stay in it. Don't duplicate services. So we did. We stayed in our lane. We didn't. Duplicate services. We're not duplicating services anyway. There have been a few instances over the years that. Have really shaken our trust. [00:17:28] Speaker A: With other organizations. [00:17:31] Speaker B: Other organizations or. No, I won't even say that. With other individuals who represent other organizations. [00:17:39] Speaker A: Right. [00:17:41] Speaker B: And I felt like we were past all of that. [00:17:48] Speaker A: Or hoped. [00:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah, at least. Yeah, well, at least hoped we'd had conversations. So I felt like we were right. We were past all of that. But after this whole thing, obviously not. [00:18:03] Speaker A: Right. It has otherwise. [00:18:05] Speaker B: Well, you know, it's difficult because I will say the first person who reached out that I went to have the meeting with, I asked for somebody from the other organization to be there. So we were all sitting in one spot because I don't like this, doing this. [00:18:30] Speaker A: He said, she said things, she said. [00:18:31] Speaker B: She said, he said, they said, whatever. I don't like doing that. [00:18:35] Speaker A: That's high school drama. [00:18:36] Speaker B: And I just figured if I was going to answer the questions, why wouldn't I answer them for everyone Right. Involved. But I was informed that that is not a thing. It was just for that person to get clarification. And I was like, okay, I didn't end up. I'm trying to be super nice about this. I did not end up getting any clarification, like, from that person. I felt like it was, we're starting off really small, but it may grow into. The hopes are for it to grow into something else. [00:19:16] Speaker A: Something the way. Something bigger, hopefully to grow into what it was proposed to us. [00:19:22] Speaker B: Right. Something closer to what we were doing. Maybe not the same, but similar. [00:19:28] Speaker A: So. [00:19:31] Speaker B: Honestly, I don't even know what questions I was asking that prompted. I was thoroughly confused. So because we had been contacted by the other organization the night before via phone call, I was being told two totally separate things. Yes, two totally separate things. [00:19:51] Speaker A: And someone had hoped the meeting at the church would have cleared that up. [00:19:56] Speaker B: Right. So I'm in the meeting at the church. I had been told two totally separate things. I was thoroughly confused. [00:20:02] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:20:03] Speaker B: And this sweet woman came out of the office. [00:20:08] Speaker A: Confused and hopeful because what that phone call presented to us was. [00:20:14] Speaker B: That was, hey, we would be involved. [00:20:17] Speaker A: Was, hey, we approached this, this, this, this church to let them know we have this, you know, pay it forward needs to be in here. We need, we need the space. We need them to run it. We need, we need this, you know, let's make this happen. And so we were optimistically hopeful, I guess, cautiously hopeful. [00:20:37] Speaker B: Wow. [00:20:38] Speaker A: Okay. And so I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I wanted to put that out. A whole lot of, you know, okay, this could happen. So we were thinking about this, you know, what do we do? What would this look like, how would this pan out? And I knew I was getting ahead of myself by thinking like that, but at the same time, I struggled so hard with closing that I was. I thought maybe this was the chance to bring it back around. And. Well, it wasn't. No, it didn't work out that way. [00:21:13] Speaker B: No. The lady who came out of the office at the church was amazing. She was super sweet. She was very thorough in her explanations, which is what led me to let Scott know, which led to our post, that they're not looking to duplicate anything that we were doing. She was in on the original meetings, whatever. They were not looking to duplicate anything that we were doing. It's a pilot program. It's to get our. For appears to have a space to go. And, And I'm all for that. I'm all for that. I told them, if you have any questions, I will answer them. Because at this point, I still hadn't been asked anything that relevant, any questions. But I came through all of that 36 hours or 38 hours, whatever it was, walked out and literally was still so confused. The only thing I had clarification on the. The only thing that was agreed upon was from two out of the three people in all of these conversations beside myself was that pay it forward was never part. [00:22:34] Speaker A: Yeah. We were not part of the conversation. [00:22:35] Speaker B: Of the conversation. We were not part of it until the one individual wanted to reach out and ask us questions about it. So so be it. That's fine. [00:22:48] Speaker A: But. [00:22:50] Speaker B: What we do requires collaborations and partnerships and honesty, and nobody can do this alone. [00:23:04] Speaker A: No, this is a huge issue, and not only in Sheboygan, but everywhere. And it's growing everywhere. And it takes an entire community to work together to try to help out, you know, and that, I guess, really kind of reiterates the importance of staying in your lane. Don't duplicate services so there's more help available. [00:23:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:27] Speaker A: You know, if you got two, three spots, places doing the same thing. Well, that's why. That's. Places that there isn't any help. There isn't the resources. [00:23:39] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:40] Speaker A: You know, So, I don't know. It's just frustrating. [00:23:43] Speaker B: But when. When stuff like this happens and it's not the first time it's happened, this is. [00:23:55] Speaker A: Multiple. [00:23:55] Speaker B: Multiple, yeah. [00:23:57] Speaker A: Over the years. Yes. Multiple. [00:23:58] Speaker B: Yeah. This is. Yeah. When that trust is fractured, when, I mean, I honestly don't know how to collaborate or partner with somebody else, when I know that somebody's been dishonest to me repeatedly, multiple times, I don't get that. I mean, bless my dad, he's up there laughing right now. But my dad always told me, growing up, he's like, kid, you got a big fucking mouth, so you better be honest, because it's going to come back to bite you in the ass. It is going to come back to bite you in the ass. And the last thing you need to do is have to remember who you said what to. [00:24:50] Speaker A: Yep. [00:24:51] Speaker B: So I need to share that advice because it's amazing advice. And, like, just be honest. I would feel better. And I've always said this. I'm very open about it. I would feel better if somebody came to me in the middle of all of this stuff and said, I started these conversations and I fucked up. I'm sorry. I fucked up. [00:25:18] Speaker A: I dropped the ball, man. [00:25:18] Speaker B: You may not be any part of it now, and I'm sorry. I own that. I'd have a lot more respect for that. [00:25:26] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [00:25:27] Speaker B: Because it's almost a week later and I'm still sitting here doing. Huh? What happened? Like, when Scott said he wanted to do this podcast, at first I was like, fuck, no, I'm not doing that. [00:25:35] Speaker A: Oh, you cannot believe the resistance I got from that, like, I don't want. [00:25:40] Speaker B: To do that, but I don't like engaging in the negativity. I don't like that. [00:25:47] Speaker A: No. And. And that. [00:25:47] Speaker B: And people deserve transparency. People deserve honesty. I deserve honesty. We deserve honesty as an organization. [00:25:55] Speaker A: Right. And like I said earlier, that was why I wanted to do this was pretty much because you can't get anything out of a Facebook post. You get. There's. There's no emotion. There's no reality to it. It's simply print. It's not. It's not what my intent was. I didn't want to point fingers. I didn't want to place blame on anybody. I just wanted to put it out there. And I felt that we needed to clear things up a little bit. We needed to dig in a little bit more so everybody had an understanding of where we were and why. Why being the biggest thing, why we were struggling and why the emotions got so big on this one. [00:26:37] Speaker B: Because. Because this is why I will tell you right now, we have not. We. And we have worked super hard to not do any of this with the I mentality. [00:26:54] Speaker A: Oh, it's not about, I, I did. [00:26:55] Speaker B: That, I did this, I did that, or ego. We don't let our ego come into the room right now. I will say in this podcast, because somebody's gonna hear that and say, your ego'. It. Yeah. And it's wounded. [00:27:07] Speaker A: So. Right. [00:27:08] Speaker B: You know, my feelings are. But. But there. And more so recently than ever, there are so many eyes and egos in the conversations that it makes me not even want to partake in the conversations. [00:27:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:27:31] Speaker B: You know, like, I don't doing what we do for the population that we serve. There is no room for ego for eyes or egos in that room. And when I say eyes, I mean, like, I did this, I did that. I started this, I did that. That's what I mean by eyes. [00:27:50] Speaker A: Right. You know, I had said multiple times, if there was a way that I could have done any of this without anybody having any clue as to who I was, I'd have been perfectly happy. That was a little impossible to do because, you know, we were very public. We were very upfront. [00:28:08] Speaker B: You have to be raised awareness. [00:28:10] Speaker A: Exactly. You know, we talked to churches, we talked at multiple different. For other organizations. We were out there. So that. That was not an option. But it's not about who's doing what. It's about what's getting done. Right. You know, and. And it's. It's. I don't know, just frustrating, I guess, regardless of where this Goes and how this pans out or. Or what's coming. Like, you know, like Kathleen said, we had not heard at this point what their decision was because they were supposed to meet that Monday evening. [00:28:55] Speaker B: They're not gonna tell us. [00:28:56] Speaker A: No, they're not gonna let us. But regardless of what happens or if somebody does this, man, I wish you all the best. I wish you huge success in doing this. Because tying back, it's not about who's doing what. It's about what's getting done. And it's our peers that are the ones that are getting. Are paying the price for it. [00:29:19] Speaker B: Right. Right. And I did tell them when I left the church that day, I hope it goes through. [00:29:23] Speaker A: We would help in any way. [00:29:25] Speaker B: I genuinely hope it goes through. And I'm available to answer any questions and help in any way that I can. But I was also told at that meeting that none of this was supposed to be out there for community knowledge consumption or opinions. And it is because of us. So. [00:29:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:47] Speaker B: Or I can't say because of us. I'm totally gonna throw my husband under the bus on that one. [00:29:52] Speaker A: It was because of me. [00:29:53] Speaker B: It is out because of him, not me. [00:29:55] Speaker A: But that's what I do. But if you don't like it, I don't know what to tell you. [00:29:58] Speaker B: It's fine. [00:29:58] Speaker A: Tough shit. [00:29:59] Speaker B: It's fine. But I do the same thing. I hold. It's accountability. I hold people accountable. [00:30:04] Speaker A: Well, it is. And by putting it into words, putting it out there, it becomes a reality. And it. It's a way for me to process this. [00:30:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:17] Speaker A: It's a way for me to. If I can see this, if I can physically see what it is that's going on in this mess that I call my head, it helps me to process it, to work through it, to figure out how to move forward, how, you know, what I can do with this. Because I get stuck up there sometimes, and that's a pretty. Pretty scary place to be sometimes. Sometimes it's dark and lonely too, but. So I put it out on paper or on social media or on something like that. And strict. Well, other than, you know, to let everybody know what's going on. Because that's that whole transparency thing. It's for processing. It's how I operate. And it just works. If, perchance, somebody does this or if they do decide to go forward with this, you know, kudos. More power to you. Because, you know, our peers do need a place to get out of this cold, especially in days like today and tomorrow. I guess what a lot of people don't realize is what it takes to do something like that. And we didn't either when we. When we first started doing. We had no clue. [00:31:34] Speaker B: Right. Well, I mean, they can just open their doors and let them in and have a few volunteers, but they have to understand. And like I said, I wasn't asked any of these questions, but I know that they listen or they were listening, so hopefully they'll hear. You have to. No matter how good your intentions are, there are certain things you have to be prepared for and just hope that they never happen. [00:32:05] Speaker A: Yes. [00:32:06] Speaker B: I mean, you have to know how to de escalate a situation between other individuals quickly. Very quickly. Because tensions run high super quickly. [00:32:18] Speaker A: Especially in a community like our unhoused population. The majority of our peers spend so much time together because realistically, there's no place to go. [00:32:27] Speaker B: Correct. [00:32:28] Speaker A: Or no place for individuals to go to get away from everybody else. That tensions run hot. [00:32:35] Speaker B: Right. [00:32:36] Speaker A: Constantly. Because they spend so much time together. [00:32:39] Speaker B: Well, and there's mental health issues. [00:32:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:32:41] Speaker B: And then you have the. [00:32:43] Speaker A: There's addiction issues. [00:32:44] Speaker B: There's addiction issues. So, I mean, you. You have to be able to de escalate a situation because that situation could come up in two seconds. Like, they could be perfectly fine, or everything's cool and calm and there's no problems, and one person walks away in and says something, and all of a sudden there's a big problem. So you just need to be aware of those situations. You have to have safety protocols in place. You. You have to be prepared for them no matter what. It's not just as simple as I'm going to open my doors and, you know, we're here working anyway, so they can come in and sit down. [00:33:23] Speaker A: Doesn't work like that. [00:33:24] Speaker B: It's. It's. I wish it was that easy. [00:33:27] Speaker A: You need. You need sobriety expectations, you need behavior expectations. [00:33:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:35] Speaker A: You need safety protocols in place. You need all of this stuff implemented before you open your doors. And some of it is fluid, some of it is very. You develop it as you go. There was a lot of stuff, but. [00:33:48] Speaker B: You have to be aware. [00:33:49] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [00:33:50] Speaker B: And maybe they are. And I just wasn't. That wasn't part of the conversation with me. [00:33:56] Speaker A: Okay. But maybe not even directed towards them. If anybody's thinking about doing something like this, there's a lot to this and a lot of it we learned the hard way. You know, we planned, we prepared. We had an idea of what we were doing prior to opening our doors because of, like, the open door. The library that we had over two. [00:34:19] Speaker B: Years of experience working on a daily basis with this population, with our, with our peers before we opened our day center. [00:34:26] Speaker A: Right. So we knew we had an idea of what to expect and where this could go and how quickly it could go south. [00:34:36] Speaker B: And we've always said from day one that Michigan Ave to Erie Ave. Was a world of difference because Michigan Ave was a shit show. [00:34:42] Speaker A: Oh, it was. So what was so small? Everybody was. And what people don't realize too is people bring with them. They bring trauma, they bring anger, they bring grief and crisis every single day. Our peers are living in survival mode. [00:34:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:59] Speaker A: Their world is crisis and they bring that with them everywhere they go. So even if they're having a good day, that's still there, right? There needs to be consistency. We were huge on accountability. Our rules were very clearly posted when you first walked in. They were pretty much everywhere. We, you know, in our intake packet that everybody who utilized our space had to fill out or you were not allowed to come in our space. One of the pages you had to sign was our rules. [00:35:32] Speaker B: Yep. [00:35:34] Speaker A: And they were, they were in big, bold, red letters. The entire page was red print, bold, huge, like, like 18 or 20 font that you had to read and sign because these were the expectations of utilizing that space. And you know, like I said, and it was on the walls. It was, it was, we had that was that sign 2ft by 4ft, 3ft by 5, whatever it was of every one of rules. We didn't have a lot of rules. [00:36:04] Speaker B: I didn't, with my kids growing up, you don't need. But they never changed. [00:36:08] Speaker A: I was just going to say that you don't need a lot of rules. You just need to be consistent with the ones you have and adhere to those rules. You need to, you need the follow through. You need to, if you do this, this is what's going to happen point blank, like it or lump it, this is what happens. That was very clearly stated. We lived by that there. And you have to. [00:36:31] Speaker B: Right. [00:36:35] Speaker A: Another thing you need. If you're going to have people coming in and doing stuff like that, you need resources for them to come in. You need, you need stuff that they could use in their daily lives of some sort, bathrooms, some sort of supplies, some sort of advocacy, some a listening or somebody, just to have somebody there as a presence. You're not going to get anybody to come see you anyway, maybe for a few minutes to get, I mean you. [00:37:10] Speaker B: Might, when it's cold outside, have a place to go. [00:37:14] Speaker A: So you need real structure to help People to stabilize and rebuild their lives. And, and I'm not saying that that wouldn't be offered or that couldn't be offered in that space or that, but. [00:37:28] Speaker B: Right. But I mean, I will in this aspect say, you know, sometimes maybe it is just a warm space. We provided way more than that for the majority that came in. I mean, some people just came in to be in a warm space, have coffee and watch a little tv. I mean, everybody's different. So even just for them to provide the warm space, oh, it's huge. [00:37:56] Speaker A: It really is. [00:37:57] Speaker B: It is huge. But there are still things they need to be proven, prepared for, like I said. But I mean, they could do that. I mean, not, not everybody has the same, the same end goals, you know what I mean? [00:38:15] Speaker A: And, and you know, like I said earlier, I'm not, I'm not trying to discredit anybody for that. I'm not. If, if that's what you're up to doing or if that's what you can offer, that's better than nothing. That is, that is huge. Thank you for, for attempting that. Thank you for doing that for our peers. That is much appreciated and much needed. I, I don't mean to sound ungrateful. I don't mean to, I guess, sound like a naysayer because I'm really not trying to be right. But, but I guess at the same time you kind of need to be prepared for what you're getting yourself into. And, and, and I'm not. We are not the all knowing, all seeing great oz, I promise. But we do have experience. You know, this isn't our first go around. We do have a background. We know what we're talking about. Do we know all of it? Absolutely not. There are other organizations that have been doing this that know far more than we do. And we relied on them for guidance to, and for. If we didn't know something or if we didn't have the resources, it was, hey, what do you have for this? Or what can we do with this? And that's, I guess, where we came into play. You know, staying in our lane, not duplicating services was like, if we can't help you with this, I know somebody that can. Hold on, let me make a phone call. [00:39:41] Speaker B: Well, I feel like in some, some situations, I feel like in a lot of situations that I've dealt with over the last five years that the human side of leadership is lost. It is like people, people expect perfection. I'm not, I'm not even sure that that's how I need to phrase that, I mean. Okay, I'm gonna stop. You just need to be able to say, I'm a human being and I fucked up. I'm sorry. [00:40:30] Speaker A: Own it. Own that shit. [00:40:31] Speaker B: I mean, can, can we just normalize that? I know some of you are thinking, not with the F bomb in it right now. And that's fine. [00:40:40] Speaker A: Anybody that knows us knows that's it is what it is. [00:40:42] Speaker B: But, you know, just, can we just normalize not just being able to say, I own it? I, I, I, I made a mistake. [00:40:50] Speaker A: I dropped the ball. Sorry. [00:40:51] Speaker B: I own that. I dropped the ball. I, I, I just did that the other day when I went and took care of something that I should have taken care of two months ago. And then I just kind of dropped out of existence for a while because life was going on and, and that's what the universe decided was I was going to be home for like six. [00:41:12] Speaker A: Weeks between sicknesses and whatever else that. [00:41:14] Speaker B: Ran through, between car problems and whatever. But, you know, the first thing I did was thank you for giving me some grace. I'm sorry it took so long for me to get here. You know, there have been a lot of people over the years that I've come into a meeting or I've come into, and I've come into it with, thank you for giving me some grace because I was late or I dropped. [00:41:38] Speaker A: A ball or anybody that knows Kathleen, she's perpetually a few minutes late. [00:41:42] Speaker B: I'm always late. I'm always late. [00:41:44] Speaker A: Always. [00:41:46] Speaker B: Like, if I was at the center before 7:02am Our peers were like, wow, are you okay? [00:41:53] Speaker A: Because it's only a couple minutes, but it's perpetually. [00:41:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's only a few minutes. [00:41:57] Speaker A: Which drove me batshit crazy because I was always like, come on, we have places we need to go. We need to, you know, we need to be here, like yesterday. Like, let's go. And in, in the words of one of my. [00:42:06] Speaker B: But it's just a thing. It's not even intentional. [00:42:08] Speaker A: No, it's not. It just happens. And one of, in the words of one of my dear friends who's recently passed on, what's a hurry when I'm in no hurry, you know? [00:42:17] Speaker B: But, you know, I will say that's probably the difference between, between men and women, too. Like, have you ever seen those memes? Like, the mom says, I'm going to bed now. And she gets up and does the dishes and does put something else away and changes the load of laundry. And dad says, I'm going to bed now. He just gets up and goes in the bedroom and goes to bed. [00:42:40] Speaker A: Sometimes I get. [00:42:41] Speaker B: You do the coffee pot and stuff. You're missing the point of what I just said. [00:42:44] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. But yeah. [00:42:45] Speaker B: Oh yeah, you're missing the point of it because for me, going somewhere is the same thing. I call them squirrel moments because I see things that need to be put away or something else that needs to be finished quick. Or like if I was leaving this center to go to a meeting, there was one more peer that needed something or something else they needed to tell the volunteer or it was never, just. [00:43:09] Speaker A: Let me grab this quick before I run out the door. [00:43:11] Speaker B: Yeah. It was never just, I have to go. There's. There's always 8 million things that need to be taken care of when you are doing things like we do with our center or with raising Madeline. [00:43:26] Speaker A: Right. [00:43:26] Speaker B: Our granddaughter. I mean, it's, it's never just as easy as I'm. [00:43:31] Speaker A: I'll be there in a second. Yeah. [00:43:32] Speaker B: You know, especially not when you're. You're carrying the weight of all of those people's needs and their, their safety and their trust and. [00:43:45] Speaker A: Well, it took a long time to build that trust and that relationship with them. [00:43:48] Speaker B: Right. [00:43:50] Speaker A: And you know, and that was one. [00:43:51] Speaker B: Of the things too, for most of them. We still have that trust because I pop up randomly. [00:43:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:56] Speaker B: Places. [00:43:56] Speaker A: And we still do. They're. [00:43:58] Speaker B: They get excited to see me. I love them. [00:44:01] Speaker A: We're still, you know, behind the scenes. We're still, we're still out and about and we're still doing, you know, just not as visual, I guess. You know, we're kind of slinking under the radar these days. [00:44:14] Speaker B: I am selective about the sandboxes I want to play in nowadays. [00:44:19] Speaker A: Yes. [00:44:20] Speaker B: Very selective. [00:44:21] Speaker A: Oh yeah. You have to be. [00:44:22] Speaker B: I mean, in order to play in the same sandbox, all you have to do is be kind of. [00:44:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:44:27] Speaker B: Be kind, be honest. We can have different beliefs, we can have different opinions, we can have completely different ways of going about doing things. And open communication makes all of that a non issue. Like it makes it totally doable because it takes all different walks of life. [00:44:55] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [00:44:57] Speaker B: To make things really happen. [00:44:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:45:02] Speaker B: Or I should say perspectives from all different walks of life to make things happen. [00:45:09] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, and, and kind of going full circle here. I. None of this was put out to stir drama, to cause any kind of grief, to cause any kind of hardship or to call anybody out. It was a just, I guess, educational aspect of it. I don't know how else to put it. I guess Let people know what's going on, how this world works or this, what we do, how this works, and how quickly misinformation can spread. What doesn't get seen often by the public is the stuff that goes on behind the scenes. And there was a lot of things that our peers never quite grasped neither. They're like, you know, you come here, you go home, you this and that. And I'm like, dude, you have no idea how much gets done that. You have no clue what we do, how many hours get put in and what kind of stuff gets done when nobody's looking. [00:46:12] Speaker B: Right. [00:46:13] Speaker A: You know, and they're like, really? And it's like, this place doesn't run itself. You know, there's things that need to be done. Public doesn't see the emotional cost on this, doesn't see how quickly your lives intertwine. And that attachment, how quickly that attachment is formed and how much a part of your life that our peers become. [00:46:43] Speaker B: Right. [00:46:44] Speaker A: And that's one of the parts that I struggle with a lot. Truly some amazing people. The emotional aspect to it is difficult and knowing on days like today or nights like tonight, when it's bitter cold and there's some people that aren't allowed to go into the library or. [00:47:05] Speaker B: Or aren't allowed to go into the. [00:47:06] Speaker A: Warming center or aren't allowed to go into the warming center. [00:47:09] Speaker B: And I mean, let's be real. It's because of past choices. [00:47:12] Speaker A: It's choices they've made. They've done it. [00:47:15] Speaker B: There were people who were not allowed in our center, full account. [00:47:19] Speaker A: It's their own fault. [00:47:19] Speaker B: Still worry about them, however, all of them. [00:47:21] Speaker A: That doesn't mean that we're gonna just shrug them off to the side. You know, I have a saying that I use a lot. You know, I don't wish you to starve. You're just not allowed to eat at my table. [00:47:34] Speaker B: Right. But at our center, though, I just did it last week at the lunch. I popped in there and ended up bringing a lunch out to the curb because somebody wasn't allowed there. I mean, I used to do that at our center. If somebody wasn't allowed in on a Sunday or any day, if you sent. [00:47:55] Speaker A: Somebody and said, hey, they could come. [00:47:57] Speaker B: And stay out on the sidewalk. And when they got another peer's attention or if they had a phone, they could call inside and I would bring them out food. [00:48:05] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:48:06] Speaker B: Or whatever they were in need of. If they needed hygiene supplies. Hygiene supplies or a blanket or whatever, I would bring it out. I mean, we still get those messages oh, yeah. [00:48:17] Speaker A: Hey, I need blankets. I need sleeping bags. I need hygiene items. I need. What do you got? You know, and we're still sorry. [00:48:24] Speaker B: We're squirreling. [00:48:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Regardless of everything that has transpired to this point, with the miscommunication, with the misrepresentation, I guess. [00:48:41] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, if a spot opens up and. And they put it out there publicly that it's open, I want everybody to show them nothing but support. Oh, absolutely nothing but support. [00:48:54] Speaker A: You know, because people deserve dignity. They deserve honesty. [00:49:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:03] Speaker A: They deserve support. Whichever organization is doing this, they deserve support and above all, safety. Our peers, the people doing it, the volunteers, because our community, and I can't stress this enough, we. And I've said this multiple. We live in an amazing community. The amount of support that we had seen over the years was astounding. Was unbelievable. The support and the people that backed us and helped when we needed it. When we'd put a post out, hey, we need this, that or the other thing, man. We had people coming in, steady stream at the center. We had to stop putting out posts for milk because we'd end up with like dozens and dozens of gallons of milk because everybody's like, hey, I got this, you know, thank you. Thank you for that continued support and the support that we still get through all of this. Multiple approaches to all of this must exist. It has to. Goes back to. Not one person or one organization can fix this, but together we can make a huge difference. And I don't want to sound cliche ish with that, but we can. The kindness and the accountability can coexist, and it has to. To make it work. Kathleen, is there anything that you want to add? [00:50:35] Speaker B: Um, no. I. I'm. I'm just gonna be straight up honest and say I hope I never have to talk about this again ever. [00:50:47] Speaker A: And I get that. [00:50:50] Speaker B: Like. Like it. Yeah. I don't. I wish them well. And I told them, if I can answer any questions, if I can, there's. [00:51:01] Speaker A: Some way we can help. [00:51:02] Speaker B: If there is any way that we can be of help, I will be there. Just reach out to me. I will do it. Because it's not about any of us. It's not about any of us. [00:51:16] Speaker A: It's about pulling together and helping others. [00:51:19] Speaker B: I hold true to that. I will help in any way that we can. [00:51:25] Speaker A: Absolutely. For those of you listening, for those of you that have been continuing to listen, thank you. Those of you that are sharing and getting the word out and helping to educate and trying to relieve some of that stigma, thank you. I appreciate that. That's what this is all about. This work is complicated. This work is emotional. It's hard, but it's meaningful. No solution that we can come up with is going to be simple, but we have to work together to do that. I appreciate every one of you that listens, every one of you that shares this, every one of you that gets the word out and continues to get the word out, and everybody who stood, who supports organizations that are in the trenches and making a difference, it's that support that keeps everybody going. I cannot stress that enough. So please continue with your support, continue sharing, continue getting the word out, and as always, keep your heart open and pay it forward. [00:52:42] Speaker B: Sam.