What people don't see: Why it feels like nothing changes

[00:00:22] Speaker A: Welcome back to Sheboygan Stories unhoused and Unheard. I am your host, Scott labonte. Today's episode is one I didn't plan weeks in advance, but honestly, those are often the most important ones. I'm sitting here again with my wife Kathleen, and today we're going to talk about two things that are deeply connected. What people don't see when it comes to homelessness and why it often feels like nothing ever changes. And we do kind of get a lot of feedback from people on both of those, so we figured we'd kind of address that a little bit today. All right, And. And again, I want to. I want to stress, because some of the episodes strike a chord. For some people, this isn't about pointing fingers or blaming systems. It's about sharing a perspective from what we've lived, what we've witnessed, and from what many of our peers experience every single day. So we're sitting here, and this is just a real conversation. So welcome, and thank you for joining us. [00:01:31] Speaker B: This is one of those topics. Well, like a lot of the topics we talk about, it's hard, but it's necessary. [00:01:38] Speaker A: It is. It definitely is. And that's the whole purpose of this kind of to break that stigma and get that education out there and have people understand what it is our peers deal with and what we've dealt with or what we've lived with in our journey of doing this. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Right. [00:01:57] Speaker A: So segment one is kind of. We're gonna start out with a. What people don't see about homelessness. When people think about homelessness, they usually picture a moment, somebody sleeping outside, you know, on a sidewalk, in an alley, by one of the businesses, or behind a dumpster or wherever it is that they may be sleeping or somebody asking for help or someone standing in line for a meal. What people don't see is everything in between those moments. And that's a lot. A lot of what doesn't get seen is the life is broken into very short windows of help. It's not about, you know, you do see maybe somebody going to the Sunday lunches or hanging out at the library or, you know, just trying to stay warm, trying to get out of the elements. [00:02:50] Speaker B: Right. And when our center was open, it looked different because we were open 12 hours a day. When it's cold out like this, there. [00:02:56] Speaker A: Was always a place to go. [00:02:57] Speaker B: So there was always between us and the warming center being open, there was always a place for them to go, so. So it wasn't as visible as it is right now. Although I have to Say I go downtown all the time because. Go to the transitional housing unit. I go see our peers downtown and meet with them. But anyway, I'm downtown several days a week and, and I don't, I don't see it, I don't see it like I used to. [00:03:28] Speaker A: Right. [00:03:29] Speaker B: I don't. There was a point like when Pay it Forward started and before pay it Forward started. What, what level we're on. [00:03:39] Speaker A: Yes. [00:03:40] Speaker B: Like, like you would go downtown and see our, our peers experiencing homelessness. You would, you would see them everywhere. And, and I, I don't see it. [00:03:54] Speaker A: Right. Not like, not like it was. [00:03:56] Speaker B: No, no, not like it was at all. [00:03:59] Speaker A: Okay. Some of that, though, and I want to play a little bit on the flip side of that is, is. [00:04:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Because homelessness doesn't look like some people think it does. [00:04:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:04:08] Speaker B: My whole point. [00:04:09] Speaker A: Right. And that is the whole kind of, that is kind of the whole point. And, and, and a lot of it. The city is cracking down on it and they're doing a lot of policing and nothing against our police force. [00:04:18] Speaker B: No, some of it, some of it's good because whether, whether they're experiencing homeless, homelessness or not, they're just being vagrants. There, There are ass hats in every walk of life. [00:04:29] Speaker A: Oh, 100%. [00:04:30] Speaker B: That's the nicest way to say that. There are asshats in every walk of life. And I've always told our peers, always, your choices are your choices. You can make whatever choice you want. But the consequences of those choices, the consequences that rain down on everybody else around you, not just you, those consequences are somebody else's to decide, not yours. [00:04:54] Speaker A: Absolutely. You are free to make that decision. Not free from the consequences that follow. [00:04:58] Speaker B: Exactly. Like I would tell them, inner center, if somebody did something dumb, I hope you appreciated your choice because now here's your consequence. Now here's your consequence. You want to come in and have alcohol in your bag and it's your first time. Well, now you got a seven day suspension right after I dump your alcohol down the drain. [00:05:14] Speaker A: That was the part that you didn't get to control. We did. [00:05:16] Speaker B: Yeah. We get to control that. We. Somebody else always controls your consequences. Like I would tell our peers, they're like, well, you can do whatever you want and there's no consequences for. You bet me. Have you met my board of directors? [00:05:31] Speaker A: Right? We answer to them. And we still do, you know, we still have our board. We still, even though we're, you know, like we mentioned several times, I mean. [00:05:38] Speaker B: We'Re both on the board, but There are. There are multiple other board members that we have to answer to. [00:05:42] Speaker A: Right. That could technically fire us. [00:05:45] Speaker B: Right. It's not just our decision. Decision. We do have people that we answer to. [00:05:51] Speaker A: Right. And that. That I guess would fall into the category too, of things people don't see. [00:05:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:56] Speaker A: You know, so that ties in actually. [00:05:58] Speaker B: Well, just like the office work. [00:06:01] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:02] Speaker B: That makes it all function. [00:06:04] Speaker A: Right. The stuff that goes on behind the scenes that our peers never really saw. [00:06:07] Speaker B: Oh, you have to do that. [00:06:08] Speaker A: Oh, no, it miraculously works. Things that people don't see, you know, that we kind of touched on a little bit, like the meals. Okay. Granted, there's still Sunday meals. There's the community cafe lunches. There's stuff like that. They see people there or in line there or waiting to get something to eat or it gets them out of the cold for a little while. They hang out at the library, you know, And I follow a lot on social media. I did go back onto the Nextdoor app, which I was off for a while because. [00:06:42] Speaker B: Oof. Because it's a shit show. [00:06:43] Speaker A: It is. And I. And I. And I get sucked right into it. [00:06:46] Speaker B: There's mean people on there. [00:06:47] Speaker A: There really is. There. There is mean people. The way they talk about our peers and the way things are on. [00:06:52] Speaker B: Well, it's not just our peers, just in general. [00:06:56] Speaker A: And I got sucked in and I was arguing with people and stuff, and it didn't end well. So I. I got rid of it for a while, but I'm back. [00:07:01] Speaker B: And the keyboard warriors are on the. [00:07:04] Speaker A: Next door 100%, and they are out in full force. [00:07:06] Speaker B: I obviously, from what I say, I'm not on there. No, she just pay me to go on there. [00:07:11] Speaker A: Shakes her head when I tell her that I'm battling back and forth. [00:07:13] Speaker B: Yeah. He tells me stuff and I'm like, why do you even engage in that? I don't understand. [00:07:18] Speaker A: So anyway, kind of getting back to it, you know, meals. Standing in line for the meals are waiting for the community cafe, the warming center that's open at night. And, you know, I can't stress this enough. They do an amazing job there. We're very thankful for what they do there. It gives our peers a place to go, get off the streets at night, someplace warm. Library, stuff like that, that they hang out. And where I was going with it when I got sidetracked on the nextdoor app is there's a lot of people on the Nextdoor app that have a lot to say about our peers hanging out at the library. And some of it I have to tell you, I call bullshit, and I mean that in the nicest way possible because there's people on there that are talking about, oh, I was harassed by these homeless people, or I was chased by them, or I was this. And I've dealt with these people now for several years. And no disrespect, but none of them are chasing you. I can promise you that. You may think that you may envision that's what's going on. They may be walking outside as you're walking outside, or they may be going someplace in library that they're not chasing you. [00:08:24] Speaker B: But we all create scenarios in our. [00:08:26] Speaker A: Own head, most of them, and they don't have that ambition. [00:08:31] Speaker B: Well, they're tired, right? [00:08:33] Speaker A: Their life is exhausting. Nobody's chasing you. Nobody's. Are there some assholes in a bunch of 100%, right. [00:08:41] Speaker B: But my other question is, is how do you know they're homeless or do you just make an assumption? [00:08:47] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:48] Speaker B: Because I go to the library on a regular basis and there's. There's always a bunch of people hanging out. Are they all homeless? Hell no. No. [00:09:00] Speaker A: Absolutely not. [00:09:01] Speaker B: Nope. Absolutely not. So for you to just make the assumption that they're homeless is wrong. And I'm sorry, but I've. I've dealt with, I don't know, sometimes the loudest ones. [00:09:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:24] Speaker B: Sometimes the biggest troublemakers have their own home to go to. [00:09:31] Speaker A: Yes, they do. And. And the ones usually that raise the most shit and raise the most cane and, and yell or play the victim card are the ones that created the own to start with. [00:09:46] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:47] Speaker A: And. And that may not be the case, but sometimes it is, you know, kind of going back in, into. The. The parts that people don't see. They're constantly trying to plan their next move. Where. Where am I gonna go next? You know, I can't. They know. Well, I can't stay at the library for X amount of hours. [00:10:10] Speaker B: Well, like right now, it's Sunday. We're recording this on Sunday afternoon. So I don't know what time it is. [00:10:16] Speaker A: About 25 after 1. [00:10:17] Speaker B: Right. So the lunches that serving hands does at the transitional housing unit is getting over with. They're done serving by two. They're pretty much cleared out now. There are individuals who have to figure out where they're going until the warming center opens up for entrance. [00:10:43] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:43] Speaker B: And it's not because there's nowhere else open. [00:10:45] Speaker A: Right. And it's not so bad on a day like today where it's, you know, sun is out, grinding. It might Be a little bit chilly. But you get those sub zero days simply walking from place to place is dangerous. [00:10:55] Speaker B: Right. And they're outside now. I mean unless they have a friend's house to go to or. But all of that takes planning. They're, they're outside now. Unless a church around there maybe open their doors. I don't, I don't know. You know, I hope somebody opens their doors because they spend a lot of time and effort. They're like we said, they're outside and. [00:11:18] Speaker A: They'Re carrying all the shit with them. [00:11:19] Speaker B: They're carrying all their shit. They're trying to figure out how to stay warm until that warming center opens. [00:11:25] Speaker A: And that's not to let them in later on. [00:11:27] Speaker B: I don't, yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure when. 6:00', clock, 6:30, something like that. [00:11:31] Speaker A: I'm not sure that's a long time to be outside even, even on relatively nice. [00:11:35] Speaker B: And I'm not sure they may open a little earlier on Sundays because there's nowhere open during the day. I'm not real sure about that. Right. But I know they're very good to our peers. [00:11:46] Speaker A: So they. Absolutely, very thankful that they, that they are in existence and they operate and they're running that every single night. So I guess, you know, with that, what they don't see, you know, carrying everything, planning the next move, meals stuff. What stands out to you about how exhausting their day to day life really is? [00:12:06] Speaker B: Well, they're in survival mode. So even more than the physical exhaustion is the mental exhaustion. [00:12:14] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:12:15] Speaker B: The mental exhaustion. You know, we deal with it a lot some of the, and we still deal with it even though we don't have an open space right now because. [00:12:25] Speaker A: We still, we still know what's going on. [00:12:26] Speaker B: The, the. I'm trying to figure out how to wear. The pettiness. [00:12:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:35] Speaker B: Between them, we witnessed it all the time at our center too. The, the pettiness, the cattiness, the pointing fingers, the, the homeless stealing from the homeless, which I don't understand. And I've always said that I don't, I don't understand. Why would you steal from somebody in. [00:12:51] Speaker A: The same, the same boat as you. [00:12:53] Speaker B: The situation as you. But here's what I do understand. They don't have anything. [00:13:00] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:02] Speaker B: So even though we look at their things and think they don't have anything. [00:13:07] Speaker A: To them it's everything. That's their whole world. [00:13:08] Speaker B: To them it's everything. And to another individual in the same situation, it's everything that they don't have. Themselves. [00:13:18] Speaker A: That could be that one piece. [00:13:20] Speaker B: Right. I mean, there's. And I'm not saying it's right. It is not right. You don't need to steal from each other. That's bullshit. [00:13:26] Speaker A: Right. I don't care. [00:13:27] Speaker B: What. [00:13:27] Speaker A: I've never quite grasped that concept. [00:13:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't get that. But. But it lends to the. To the exhaustion. The. The emotional exhaustion. The physical exhaustion. I mean, you don't know what it takes just for somebody to show up. [00:13:49] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:50] Speaker B: Just to show up. [00:13:52] Speaker A: Just to be present, like to show. [00:13:54] Speaker B: Up at our center, much less to show up and ask for help. I mean, we have some other things in the works, but again, it'll be a place for them. [00:14:11] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. Just going to show that we're not. We're not down and out yet. We've always been in the background and we're always trying to figure stuff out. And I think we finally have. We're just waiting on a few other pieces to fall into place. And then we will really put it out there. What's. What's coming and what's going on and. And stay tuned. It'll be pretty cool. But, you know, kind of going back with the exhaustion and, and, you know, both physical and mental. Mental, mental. Speak really well. Honest. I am a teacher. [00:14:42] Speaker B: An English teacher. [00:14:43] Speaker A: Right. Well, special ed. Fitting. There's no real rest. They're always on alert, always have to be aware of the surroundings, who's around them, what's going on. They get targeted by a lot of people simply for existing. We've had multiple times that our peers have come to us saying that they got jumped or they got beat up simply for wearing a backpack, walking down the street, or being who they were. [00:15:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:10] Speaker A: You know, so they're always on alert. Their safety concerns never shut off. That in and of itself is exhausting as all hell. If you're always trying to be alert and trying to figure out, okay, who's around here, who's going on or what's going on, what's going to happen or what possibly could happen that is mentally draining. You know, that has to be just exhaustion, decision, fatigue. Every choice they make matters, you know, and that kind of ties back into if they're not at the library or if they are at the library, how long can they stay there? Where are they going to go when they leave there? If the warming center is not open, or day like today when nothing is open, where do I go? How do I get out of the. You know, if there's a little bit of wind and I noticed. I look outside, there's some wind outside. Yes. [00:15:55] Speaker B: Gentle breezes of shade, right? [00:15:57] Speaker A: Yeah, my ass. Every decision they make matters and it affects their daily life. And we don't think about that kind of stuff because, well, if it's cold and windy, why don't we go back in the house? They don't have that option. I guess same would hold true for summer. If it's excruciatingly hot. [00:16:19] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:20] Speaker A: Where are you gonna go? [00:16:20] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:21] Speaker A: You know, it's not only a winter thing and the humidity, the wind, weather becomes dangerous. It's not, you know, not inconvenient to them. It is, it can be an actual danger, both good, bad or otherwise. What we might think is an absolute beautiful day to them. They're, you know, thinking, holy man, how am I going to get out of here? [00:16:41] Speaker B: This. Right. [00:16:42] Speaker A: But that's all stuff that you don't see or we don't think about because we don't have to, I don't know. And just, you know, again, trying to bring that awareness, trying to bring so people understand a little bit more of what our peers deal with on a daily basis. [00:16:59] Speaker B: Right. Well, what, what some people don't. Well, nobody sees is how living in survival mode or with trauma changes the way your brain works. And I know I've talked about it on here before and it's all in my, my life coaching certification that I learned the most about your critter brain. Your amygdala. Your amygdala will keep you in an absolutely horrible situation because that's what it knows. [00:17:47] Speaker A: That's it. [00:17:48] Speaker B: That's its comfort zone. That's what it knows. You know, like when my ex husband was abusing me and I was thinking about leaving, it scared me more to leave for a while than to stay there. [00:18:07] Speaker A: You knew what was coming if you stayed there. You didn't know what was coming if you left. [00:18:10] Speaker B: You didn't know if I left. [00:18:12] Speaker A: And they go through that daily, right? [00:18:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I didn't know if I left what would come. Did I have hopes and dreams and expectations? I had all of that and a support system. I would imagine I had a support support system. [00:18:25] Speaker A: Many of our peers don't once I. [00:18:27] Speaker B: Let them know what was going on because it was very secretive, you know, but, but that, that's what abuse looks like. So, so when you're, when you are living in survival mode and you, you have to spend all your time figuring out where you're going to go, how you're going to carry your stuff around, where are you going to sleep? Where are you going to eat? [00:18:53] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:54] Speaker B: Every single day when you know, where are you gonna have something to drink? Where are you gonna use the bathroom? Yeah. Where are you gonna do all of these things? Where are you going to be able to go that you can close your eyes and not worry, right? [00:19:12] Speaker A: Not be afraid of what else is out there, what else is coming your way. [00:19:16] Speaker B: Right. You know, it all comes down to habit change to get your amygdala to cooperate with. With other ideas and with changes. And like I say, if habit change was easy, I wouldn't be fat right now. Come on, people. It is super difficult, right? [00:19:39] Speaker A: You know, and not that I'm condoning it by any means, but I get the drug use or the alcohol use, right? As a method, a means to escape, to. To get away from that for a little while, right. Not that that makes it right by any means, but I get it. [00:19:54] Speaker B: It doesn't. But we're not going to judge them. [00:19:56] Speaker A: No, absolutely not. You know, cuz. [00:19:58] Speaker B: Cuz regardless of what we don't know. Well, in some cases we do, but we don't know the full extent of the trauma that put them, that led to where they are now. [00:20:13] Speaker A: They didn't wake up one morning and say, well, I'm going to go live on the streets. [00:20:17] Speaker B: Now. [00:20:17] Speaker A: That's not how that works. [00:20:20] Speaker B: There are people who live in vehicles and they choose. Trust me, if I could, I'd be a van lifer. I'd be going from river to river all over the US in my decked out van. I would totally be doing that. [00:20:39] Speaker A: Oh, that's right. [00:20:40] Speaker B: And I know there are some in Arizona doing that in Lake Havasu and I'd love to be there during the winter doing that shit. But the peers that we deal with, the majority of them, they did not trust. That's not what they're doing. It is not right what they're doing. [00:20:55] Speaker A: It was trauma or something that led to this. And their trauma doesn't stop. It doesn't pause or take a break and say, okay, I'm gonna let you know. [00:21:04] Speaker B: And in most cases it just escalates. It. It multiplies. That's the word I'm looking for. It multiplies every single day, right, that they're out there. It just multiplies, right? It doesn't go away. It. [00:21:24] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Well, and then too, you know, it comes down to. And being invisible, but yet very visible at the same time. And by that is kind of a, you know, they try not to be seen a Whole lot or be in the forefront or be draw too much attention to them. But at the same time they're out there. We know they exist. So they are visible, even though, you know, they try not to be. And with that comes, you know, with that multiplying trauma, with this, your dignity leaves quietly, right? And slowly to, you know, to the point where you might not even realize it at first, you might not think a whole lot about it. And then, you know, before you know it, I guess kind of goes back to the nobody or very few. I'd imagine there are probably some somewhere along the way but that have chosen to live this lifestyle. As that dignity slowly escapes and quietly leaves you, you find yourself doing things that you never thought you would, that you never imagined you doing. Standing in a food line, right, asking somebody for clothes, for food, for a couple bucks to get something, you know, stuff that we wouldn't think about, but their lives comes to, comes to that, it gets to that point and they don't usually have a whole lot of choice. And then when doing it, finding somebody to trust, who can you trust, who can you depend on that's going to help you? And that's where, you know, a lot of these organizations that come into play, you have to earn their trust. And that takes time. It took a long time for us to build that relationship, to build that trust with our peers, that they knew we were on their side, that we were there for them, right? [00:23:38] Speaker B: And they, they know that we're still working on how to be there. [00:23:44] Speaker A: They know we're still there for them. [00:23:46] Speaker B: You know, the thing I hear the most, we have a friend. I'll call her a friend. She is a friend who does the resource tables like at the community cafe, maybe at the warming center too. [00:24:01] Speaker A: I think she's very good friend. [00:24:02] Speaker B: Anyway, we're all in the same little community. So she tells me all the time when she interacts with her peers that she heard again today. Oh, I miss being able to meet with Ms. Kathleen. I miss the accountability. I miss just having someone safe to talk to. I miss her guidance. I miss the safety at Pay it Forward. I miss that. Right? So, you know, friends, if you're listening. [00:24:38] Speaker A: We are still here. [00:24:38] Speaker B: We're working on it. We're working. [00:24:40] Speaker A: Don't write us off yet. We're coming back. [00:24:42] Speaker B: I won't get everybody. It's not going to be a day center. We cannot find a space for a day. Won't allow that. [00:24:48] Speaker A: We know that. [00:24:48] Speaker B: Well, it's not going to be a day center. So, so yeah. But there is something. [00:24:52] Speaker A: There's other stuff in works, and like I said, we will. As. As the pieces fall into place, we will put that out there. But not yet. Which. Which ties in beautifully to our next piece is why it feels like nothing changes. Which. Okay, I can ask. What have you seen happen when people lose their consistency in their connection? Like when we closed our doors? [00:25:20] Speaker B: Relapse. [00:25:21] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:25:22] Speaker B: Relapse, relapse and relapse again. [00:25:25] Speaker A: Spiral. Hardcore. [00:25:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. We have peers right now that we're doing so well, and there are a few of them who are incarcerated and they're looking at long term. [00:25:39] Speaker A: I was gonna say there's a couple that are going to be there for a long time. [00:25:41] Speaker B: Incarceration. Because of that relapse and choices that were made in those moments when they don't. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Well, there was no consistency, was no connection where there used to be. [00:25:57] Speaker B: Right. And I mean, change takes time. Change takes time. Like, we have a peer who tomorrow. Yay. [00:26:07] Speaker A: Gets his keys. [00:26:08] Speaker B: Finally getting his keys. Finally. Okay, well, tomorrow is January 12th. I think it was November, late November, when he got his letter. [00:26:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:24] Speaker B: That he was accepted and started these. Started the process, started the, like, bring in your. Your driver's license and your Social Security card and all of that stuff. The, like, the real process, like, you're done on the wait list. Your name is up. Let's start this paperwork process and prepping an apartment for you. And it's January 12th tomorrow, but he's finally getting his keys. I mean, these things are so slow. [00:27:02] Speaker A: And we get asked that all the time. Why does it seem like nothing ever changes? But I want to back up one, just one little piece here you had mentioned. Okay. Back in November, he got the letter saying, you know, hey, you're not. Your name has been picked. You're up next. Let's start this process. Bring your driver's license, your Social Security card. You're this, you're that, whatever, this and that. That's a world all in and of itself. [00:27:23] Speaker B: It is. And we had a friend who handheld him through all of that, all of it, because it's super overwhelming. [00:27:32] Speaker A: And not only that, but through the process of becoming unhoused or staying unhoused, chances are pretty good you have no idea where your Social Security card is. [00:27:43] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:44] Speaker A: You may not have a driver's license for whatever reason. [00:27:46] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:47] Speaker A: You may not have the necessary documentation that you need, which then opens up this entire. Another can of worms that. Okay, now I need to get this. [00:27:55] Speaker B: Within this certain time frame. [00:27:57] Speaker A: And then there's the overwhelming piece again. [00:27:59] Speaker B: Or I lose my opportunity and go back to that. I've literally waited years for number 487. [00:28:08] Speaker A: Right. So the. There's a whole new level of pressure on this. And this is where the overwhelming piece comes in. And it's almost unbearable to some. Some do have. Some are very good at keeping all the documents together or being able to get it. But if you don't have the means to get to the DMV or get to Social Security office or whatever it is that you need, these don't. Don't even know how to take that next step. [00:28:38] Speaker B: And some of them go into the meetings and then, like, they would come back to our center with this stack of paperwork and say, oh, my God, I don't even know what I'm supposed to do with this. [00:28:48] Speaker A: Right? I have all of this. They gave me this, they told me this, this, this, this, and I gone. [00:28:52] Speaker B: So, you know, we would sit down and go through it step by step. Okay, you need to get your driver's license or, you know, we. We would handhold and walk them through it step by step so they could get all of those things turned in on time. Because it's super overwhelming, Chris. The first time I looked at it, when a peer brought it in, I was like, are you freaking kidding me? Like, that's a lot of. [00:29:19] Speaker A: That's a lot of 10, 12 pages, whatever the hell it is. Like. [00:29:22] Speaker B: Right. [00:29:23] Speaker A: Wow. No, thanks. Yeah, huge kudos for sitting down to do that. Which all ties into why it seems like everything takes forever. [00:29:35] Speaker B: Because it does, right? [00:29:37] Speaker A: Crisis happens fast. You know, you end up out there in that predicament quickly, you know, but. But solutions move very slowly. Nothing in this world, or especially in their world, moves quickly. [00:29:49] Speaker B: Well, nothing. Progress. Progress is not linear. It's. It's not a straight line. It's not a. For anybody here, I need to lose like 70 pounds. So just because I say that today and I'm working on things doesn't mean that I'm going to watch the scale just continuously drop till that £70 is gone. I've been working on it for well over a year already. And that's. That's not the way it goes, right? It bounces up and down and it goes stagnant and is just a straight line. Like nothing. No progress. No, no, no tangible progress. You know, it might be internal in my insides, but it's not tangible. So when we're not. I can't say when we're not seeing progress when. When the public is not seeing Progress. You don't know that. Maybe they have gone from number 300 to number four because of all the. [00:31:03] Speaker A: Work that they did or because somebody neglected to do the work and got moved off the list or pushed back. [00:31:10] Speaker B: Correct. [00:31:11] Speaker A: So that moved them up. So our systems aren't built for urgency. They just aren't. It's not feasible. It doesn't happen. So success isn't always visible. It often happens very quietly that we don't see or most people don't see. [00:31:32] Speaker B: That was all the check ins when we had our center open. That's what our peers are missing right now. [00:31:37] Speaker A: Yes. [00:31:37] Speaker B: Like the daily, okay, this is what I did. What's next? How do I go to the. And I mean these are minuscule baby steps. [00:31:51] Speaker A: And. But that was one of the things we pushed often because even. [00:31:54] Speaker B: But that's where you see the greatest change. [00:31:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:31:57] Speaker B: Sustainable change. [00:31:59] Speaker A: Right. Even in our day to day life. If you've got an end goal or if you've got this and if you're trying to achieve anything, basically. Okay. If you're looking at this entire big picture, if you're looking at this, think, man, that's. That's where I want to get to. But there's a lot of steps between me and that. [00:32:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:32:17] Speaker A: And you start looking at these steps and you're thinking, wow, dude, I did. There's no way. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not getting that. That's not happening. We stressed. And especially you with your, with your life skills coaching and stuff like you stressed very often and I heard it from so many of our peers and I'm sure we've said it a few times in different episodes and I. What is directly in front of you? [00:32:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it's one choice at a time. [00:32:43] Speaker A: Yes. The rest irrelevant. [00:32:46] Speaker B: The rest doesn't matter. You get there one choice at a time. [00:32:51] Speaker A: Especially when you're in crisis mode. Especially when you're in survival mode. Even that baby step, that thing that's. [00:32:58] Speaker B: Right in front of you, that's the smallest choice is terrifying. Yeah. [00:33:02] Speaker A: You know, so if they had to look at the entire big picture of okay, we had talked about getting the keys to finally get into his own place tomorrow. Everything that happened when he got that letter saying, okay, your name is up. You need this, you need this, you need that. Looking at that would have been mental shutdown. And it was for him. Yeah, it was. He's got bad anxiety to begin with. To get him to slow down or any of our peers or anybody, I guess slow down and Just look at what's directly in front of you. [00:33:39] Speaker B: Well, then they're always worried once they get that, how is it going to be taken away? [00:33:43] Speaker A: And actually, I know I probably shouldn't, but I've interviewed him. We had him on the show. Those of you that follow the episodes, follow this podcast. [00:33:59] Speaker B: Okay, I'll say it, because crybaby's kicking in over here. We're moving Jimmy into his apartment tomorrow, so he'll come back in a couple weeks. Couple months. Couple months probably. [00:34:13] Speaker A: I'm gonna do a follow up with Jimmy as he's transitioned into home life. What it's like, my interview with him was on a sidewalk outside of Mead Library. [00:34:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:26] Speaker A: And a sidewalk is where we set up because that's part of this too. We meet people where they're at and that's where he was at. So that's. I met him where we said, we sat on the sidewalk outside of me library and did our entire episode, did the interview sitting there. You could hear birds, you could hear cars, you could hear people. It was where he was at. That's his life. And after years of being on the street, he finally gets his keys tomorrow, right? [00:34:52] Speaker B: And a lot of people think, yay, it's over for him. [00:34:56] Speaker A: No, it's just beginning. [00:34:58] Speaker B: It's. It's just beginning a whole other process for him, right? The reintegration, the learning to live within, inside, within those four walls or, or eight walls. I'm not sure if he's a separate bedroom or if it's not, whatever, but to learn to live in that apartment again, to have his own stove to cook stuff, his own fridge to store, stuff in his own bathroom to use whenever he wants. I mean, there's a whole other world to reintegration. [00:35:39] Speaker A: The bathroom thing. We had one of our peers that finally, after being on the streets for six years, living in his van, living on the streets, this and that. When he finally got his place, he actually, he said one of the biggest adjustments other than sleeping in a bed instead of the back of his van was not having to stand outside the bathroom for 20 minutes to use it. He said, you know, he chuckled. He said, sometimes I did it just because I was used to it. And that's, you know, just old habits die hard. He said, I'd stand outside of my own bathroom before I went in because that's what you do. That's what, you know, that's what life was. [00:36:13] Speaker B: Right? [00:36:13] Speaker A: And he said to be able to go in the bathroom anytime you want or anytime you need to is like, mind blowing and that stuff we don't think about, you know, but that's those little wins that we don't see. That's the successes we don't see. And even some of the successes that we don't see. You know, not all of those look like housing right away. [00:36:36] Speaker B: Right. [00:36:37] Speaker A: Some of them are staying sober another week, another day. Another day. Absolutely. Making that choice to not use, to not drink, to not staying sober for that much longer. You had mentioned before, simply showing up. [00:36:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:53] Speaker A: Just show up is a huge success. [00:36:56] Speaker B: Just show up. I mean, the biggest thing when we're getting to know our peers is they disappear. [00:37:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Ask for help. Instead of disappearing. [00:37:09] Speaker B: They disappear. Then when they finally come back, they're like, oh, I had X, Y and Z going on. And it was like, why did you disappear? [00:37:17] Speaker A: We could have helped you with that. [00:37:17] Speaker B: We could have helped you. That's what we're here for. And they're like, oh, but I'm not good at asking. Or I'm not used to that. [00:37:29] Speaker A: Or, you know, and when they make that, take that step into asking for help instead of disappearing and knowing that there are people there that they can trust and actually count on that success. [00:37:41] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:37:42] Speaker A: Surviving another season, making it through the winter, making through an excruciating, excruciatingly hot summer, that success that we don't see, that we don't think about. [00:37:54] Speaker B: Right. And those winds don't make headlines. But they're. They're huge. [00:37:58] Speaker A: Absolutely. They matter. [00:37:59] Speaker B: They absolutely matter. [00:38:00] Speaker A: They are huge. And it's all stuff we. We don't think about and we don't see. But it's there. [00:38:05] Speaker B: Right. [00:38:08] Speaker A: Another thing that causes or it makes why things look like they never change or they seemingly take forever. Burnout, turnover. [00:38:23] Speaker B: I would say. [00:38:23] Speaker A: Well, rebuilding trust. [00:38:24] Speaker B: I would say staff burnout, like over overturn in the field that we work in. Just looking at our own volunteers. [00:38:38] Speaker A: Burnout's real. [00:38:39] Speaker B: And, yeah, we experienced that firsthand. But looking at our own volunteers, looking at staff from other organizations that we work closely with, the turnover is real. [00:38:53] Speaker A: Oh, it is. [00:38:53] Speaker B: I mean, I think about when our center first opened almost three years ago to now, and the staff at all these places that I dealt with then versus now, they're completely different. They're completely different. None of them are the same. [00:39:10] Speaker A: Right. You know, and we talk about what it's like being on the helping side of that. The burnout, the stress, the. Imagine what it's like on the other side of that. [00:39:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's way worse. [00:39:23] Speaker A: The receiving end of that. [00:39:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:25] Speaker A: You know, so stuff takes time to change. [00:39:29] Speaker B: Well, you know, and stuff always changes with nonprofits, with nonprofit organizations like ours, there's always changes with funding. [00:39:42] Speaker A: It can stop in a moment's notice. [00:39:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:45] Speaker A: You have no control over that. [00:39:46] Speaker B: Right. You know, there's constant shifting and critiquing in what you're doing. And, you know, relationships are always resetting. Right. [00:40:01] Speaker A: Always programs end or new ones start or something, and you have to rebuild that trust and rebuild that. That relationship. [00:40:09] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:10] Speaker A: And that takes time. [00:40:12] Speaker B: Yeah, it all takes time. Right. [00:40:15] Speaker A: And just when you build that trust, something comes along and wipes it right out. You gotta start from scratch. [00:40:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:23] Speaker A: And you gotta start rebuilding it all over again. So that takes time. None of this is an easy fix. None of this is a speedy process. If it was an easy fix, nobody would be on the streets. And maybe someday. [00:40:38] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:40] Speaker A: So I guess let's reframe the question. So instead of, you know, why does nothing change? Maybe we need to reframe that question is, what changes are happening that we don't see, and they are there. [00:40:59] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. You know, progress. Progress is often internal. [00:41:10] Speaker A: Right. Before we would see any. [00:41:12] Speaker B: Before it's external, it's internal for us to see and feel before it's external for somebody else to see, see, and feel. And I know I keep going to the weight loss thing, but it's the easiest way, and it's the most to show that, like. Like, I went back to the gym. Well, it takes two weeks for me to feel it, four weeks for me to see it. But it's gonna take externally 8 to 12 weeks for somebody else to see that change. It's gonna take them that long to see a change that I saw in a short amount of time. Because it's me. [00:41:51] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:51] Speaker B: You know, so when peers are doing work, it's. It's funny. I'll liken it to this, because when you lose weight, people never say anything until it's a sizable amount of weight that you've lost. And then typically, they say something dumb like, oh, that was super quick. How did you do that so fast? [00:42:16] Speaker A: Dude, I've been at this for years. [00:42:17] Speaker B: Like, dude, I've been working on this forever. [00:42:21] Speaker A: There's been nothing fast about this. [00:42:22] Speaker B: It has been constant, continuous change and consistent actions to get there. So just because I've lost. I haven't. But, you know, just because you've lost 35 pounds and you can finally physically see it does not mean there was anything fast about it. So when you see a peer who is doing really well, and looks good. And you have no idea what they were doing, no idea the length of time or the amount of changes that it took for them to get to that. [00:43:01] Speaker A: Right. And you know, it's one of those. They didn't end up in a situation quickly or where they're at. Quickly getting out of it is not going to be quickly. [00:43:11] Speaker B: No, it's not. And you know, stability, the stability that they need starts with consistency. And that consistency starts with themselves. Yes, it starts with themselves. [00:43:26] Speaker A: Right. [00:43:27] Speaker B: And consistent actions or consistent checking in, you know, consistent accountability from others. But you don't have that if they don't show up. [00:43:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:43:41] Speaker B: So that consistency starts within them. [00:43:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:46] Speaker B: And it's not something like I see it because I'm the one meeting with them. [00:43:52] Speaker A: Right. And, and, and we had the consistent consistency with the center when we were, when we had that, you know, and we have made reference to this a few times. We saw the most progress with our. [00:44:03] Speaker B: Peers when the Wyoming center was open. [00:44:06] Speaker A: When we were open in the warming center, we knew and they knew that they had a place to go during the day. [00:44:13] Speaker B: All of their what ifs were answered so they could work. Because if they were working overnights, they could sleep at our center during the day. If they were working during the day, they could sleep at the warming center. They knew where food was coming from. If they were working second shift, they could go to the warming center and then get up and come to us and go back to sleep. They knew where their meals were coming from. [00:44:35] Speaker A: They knew where the bathroom. [00:44:36] Speaker B: They knew they were safe. They. All of the things. [00:44:42] Speaker A: Right. So that, that's the consistency that really builds that stability. [00:44:48] Speaker B: But yet that's the thing that we get fought on the most is the mentality of if you build it, they will come. Well, yeah, if we. [00:45:02] Speaker A: That's kind of the point. [00:45:03] Speaker B: If we built a place like that, you know, like, like if we were open and the warming center was open all year round. [00:45:14] Speaker A: Oh, the progress would be huge. [00:45:16] Speaker B: The progress would be amazing. And they're like, well, what about the ones who just come because they can live there for free? Well, no, there would, there would have to be different levels. Yes, there's an emergency shelter, but there's also levels as you're making progress to build on that stability and those lifelong changes. It wouldn't look like the whole thing wouldn't look like our rewarming center looks right now. [00:45:47] Speaker A: Right. [00:45:48] Speaker B: Because right now it's just, it's. I can't say just because it's so much more than that. [00:45:52] Speaker A: Yeah. It's not just. [00:45:54] Speaker B: It's an emergency overnight shelter for five months out of the year. Because that. And that hate. That is huge progress too, because when we first started doing this, it was like a couple months, six weeks or eight weeks in the coldest stretch in February or whatever that it was open. So I mean, again, change takes time. [00:46:18] Speaker A: It does. [00:46:19] Speaker B: It takes time. [00:46:20] Speaker A: You know, and with that too, and I guess not pointing fingers at any organizations or not anything that. But people aren't projects. They are not projects. They are people and need to be treated as such. [00:46:34] Speaker B: Correct. [00:46:34] Speaker A: They're not this game piece or this pawn. And you're, you know. [00:46:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:46:41] Speaker A: That's not how this works. We're dealing with human lives. And along the way, you know, we've talked about the trauma that's there, we've talked about the inconsistency or the accountability and. And all of that comes into play when you're working with people. And it goes back to what you had mentioned earlier about progress is not linear. [00:47:01] Speaker B: It is not. And the best thing that you can do, that anybody can do, like whether it's the library or the warming center or the transitional housing or a sober living place or any of those things, or pay it forward when we're open in whatever aspect, the absolute best thing that you can do for our peers is consistency. It is consistency. You have rules. Put your rules on poster board, on the wall. Rules and consequences. [00:47:40] Speaker A: Enforce them. [00:47:41] Speaker B: They don't change. Enforce them. You. Yes, we all have soft spots. Yes, we all feel bad. Yes, I'm an empath. I get it. [00:47:50] Speaker A: I'll piss people off in the process. But you need it. [00:47:53] Speaker B: I get it. But you have to have clear and consistent boundaries. You have to have healthy boundaries. [00:48:02] Speaker A: In any walk of life, if you take those boundaries, take those rules away, they're going to walk all over you. [00:48:08] Speaker B: Well, they're in survival mode. They're going to do whatever they need to to get what they need right now. And that's just. They're surviving. [00:48:17] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:48:18] Speaker B: I've been there. [00:48:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:48:20] Speaker B: I get, I get that. But those clear and consistent rules and boundaries and consequences are absolute necessity. [00:48:32] Speaker A: Have to be in place. [00:48:32] Speaker B: I do that with everybody in my life. [00:48:36] Speaker A: Well, and like when we had the center open, we had very clear rules. They were posted everywhere. Absolutely everywhere. When you first walked in the door. [00:48:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:44] Speaker A: Whether you walk in the very front door, you know, when you get into. Anybody that was familiar with the Erie Ave. Spot, when you walk in, there was like the little hallway entryway, whatever the foyer One of them went down to the bathroom. The other one came into the center itself. The rules were there. You make that right to go into the center. Straight ahead of you on this three by five. Three. I mean, by a foot. Three foot by five foot chalkboard, whatever the hell it was with. With marker, paint or whatever, I don't even know, were the rules, again, in 3 foot by 5 foot. They were not for your suggestion. They were not a. In case you want to do this. They were. This is the rules. This is what we are expecting of. [00:49:26] Speaker B: You, and this is your consequence. [00:49:27] Speaker A: And this is what's going to happen to you if you break those rules. And it wasn't a negotiation. It wasn't, okay, you've done this. This is what's going to happen to every single person that walked through that door. [00:49:39] Speaker B: I had a peer. It made me laugh. I had a peer one time. I was very close with her. I built a lot of trust with her from back before our center was ever even open. And I built tons of trust with her. And I was standing there, she was talking to me. One day, I had come from down the hallway, and she was going through her backpack, and she was talking to me. So I'd walked over, and I was standing there, and she's digging, and there was a beer in her backpack. And I went, excuse me. And she says, oh, well, I oops, and just kind of buried it and went to close the backpack. And I went, excuse me. [00:50:23] Speaker A: Like, nope, that's not the way. [00:50:24] Speaker B: Excuse me. And I opened the backpack and I took it out. And she said, well, you know. And I'm like, well, you know, rules are rules. You or anybody else, I absolutely love you, but I'm still dumping your beer down the drain. And now you're suspended for seven days. So let's finish this conversation on our way out the door so you're not left hanging. [00:50:47] Speaker A: Right. [00:50:47] Speaker B: For a week. So it. I do it because I love you. Because letting it slide. [00:50:59] Speaker A: Is setting up the failure. [00:51:01] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. [00:51:05] Speaker A: Right. You know, and with that, you know, that's the caring. That's compassion. And none of that is wasted. Even when the outcomes are unclear, even when you're not sure where you're going with it or what's going to happen. Showing that compassion, showing that consistency is never wasted. [00:51:23] Speaker B: Correct. [00:51:24] Speaker A: Right. Showing up still matters. And it will always matter. Was there anything you wanted to add before we wrap this up? [00:51:37] Speaker B: No. [00:51:38] Speaker A: All right. [00:51:38] Speaker B: Thank you for listening. [00:51:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:40] Speaker B: So thanks for coming to my TED Talk. [00:51:44] Speaker A: If there's one thing that we hope people take from this episode. It's this homelessness isn't just about not having a home. It's about not having rest, safety, or certainty and still trying to survive day after day. Change doesn't always look dramatic, but it doesn't mean that it's not happening. Thanks for listening, thanks for caring, and thanks for thanks for being willing to dig a little deeper. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it. Man, get it out there and follow us on whatever streaming platform you're on. We're on iHeartRadio, we're on Apple, we're on Spotify, where you name it. It's like 14 or 15 different podcast platforms. Chances are pretty good one of them has to have, you know, got to be one you listen to every listen, every share helps these stories reach a little further. So as always, keep your heart open and pay it forward. [00:53:01] Speaker B: Sam.