Questions We’re Asked & Conversations We Need to Have

[00:00:22] Speaker A: Welcome back to Sheboygan Stories in Housed and Unheard. I'm Scottish today. I'm sitting down with Kathleen, and we're going to do something a little different today. We've recently hit over 500 downloads on his podcast, and that's just on one platform. That means that people are listening, learning, and sharing the stories of our unhoused peers in Sheboygan and beyond. To everyone who's taken the time to tune in, thank you. That support isn't just for us. It's for people whose voices that often go unheard. And. And because of that milestone, we wanted to slow down a little, reflect and respond. And today we'll be answering real questions from our community and looking back at some of the conversations that got us here. The stories that shifted perspectives, challenged assumptions, and reminded us how human this crisis truly is. I put a post out on Facebook earlier this week, end of last week, whatever it was, asking if anybody had any kind of questions that they would like us to answer on this podcast. And a few of you actually did ask questions, and I appreciate that. And if at any time you have questions or something that you would want addressed, you know, by all means, drop me a message, shoot me a, you know, message on Facebook, private message, if you don't want it out there. I definitely won't put a name attached to it, but I. We can definitely talk about the questions. And so I appreciate that, you know, and that's what kind of keeps us going. But before we dive into that, I want to remember why this whole thing started. Remember, we started this back in. What was it like? May, March, May, whatever it was of this past year. It's been a while. We started Pay It Forward. It wasn't just a program. It was a lifeline. It was neighbors caring for neighbors because nobody else would. And it's not that I don't want to sound like nobody was stepping up. There were people that were doing little things and acts of kindness and, you know, really getting out there, but they were still falling through cracks. So we created, you know, Kathleen and I created a place where people could be safe, seen, sober, and human and work on trying to rebuild their lives. And this podcast grew out of that same DNA. We want people to hear what homelessness actually looks like from people living it. Not from headlines, rumors, or politicians. Heavens, no. Every episode reminds us that homelessness is never one single story. It's a thousand different paths, traumas, choices, circumstances. And every person has something worth listening to. And that was why we started this. And that's what prompted this? We want people to know what, I guess, what their lives are like on a daily basis. What can you add to that? [00:03:24] Speaker B: I was daydreaming. [00:03:27] Speaker A: That's all right. We're just talking about how everybody has their story and everybody has something worth listening to. What would you like to add on that? [00:03:38] Speaker B: Well, they do, but you have to be willing to take the time and sit down and listen to them. [00:03:42] Speaker A: And that's just it. Most people don't want to do that. [00:03:45] Speaker B: No, they just. I wish that every naysayer that we see on Facebook actually took the time to go and sit and have a conversation. I also wish that people understood when they comment on stuff and say, oh, I saw one. One of your homeless people downtown, and I asked if they needed help, if they needed something, and they said, no, I'm good. Everything's good. It's like, dumbass. Do you not realize that's trauma response? Do you not realize that that's them protecting themselves? [00:04:27] Speaker A: That's also humility. [00:04:29] Speaker B: Right? Right. They are. Our peers are. So it's so easy for them to be taken advantage of. Like, a genuine offer of kindness doesn't always come across like that to them because 80 to 85% of the time that somebody is offering them something, they are taking advantage of them. [00:05:00] Speaker A: It comes with a catch. Yeah. [00:05:01] Speaker B: Yeah. It comes with a cost. A really high cost. [00:05:05] Speaker A: And they know that they're familiar and. [00:05:07] Speaker B: They'Re being taken advantage of, or it lands them in very unsafe situations. [00:05:16] Speaker A: Right. Or back down a path that they'd really rather not travel again. [00:05:20] Speaker B: Correct. Correct. So for the person that asks them that, and they say, no, I'm good, thank you. Why. Why do you have to come out and bash and say, oh, they choose this. They're fine. Blah, whatever your shit is that's coming out of your mouth. [00:05:42] Speaker A: I've met a few people, seriously have commented on stuff, saying, well, you know, they choose this life. They chosen this. And my retaliation usually is, I challenge you to go downtown and find one person that. That actually chose that lifestyle. It's not glamorous, it's not fun, and it's not something that I don't think anybody actually chooses. Are there some that are content with where they're at, perhaps. We'd mentioned that in a few previous episodes, and we'd mentioned that a few times at the center, people had come to us genuinely looking for help. Most of the time, there are people, as in any walks of life, that five years, 10 years down the road are still going to be in the same situation. And that's no different than our homeless peers. Right. Did they choose that? No. But are they content? Are they okay with where they're at? Yeah. That doesn't mean they chose that lifestyle. So if you can find somebody that actually chose that, you know, kudos to you. But we've been doing this for quite a while and we know a lot of our peers and I have yet to find one that has actually chosen this lifestyle. All right, so kind of jumping in. We had a few, like I mentioned earlier, we had a few questions that had came in. One of the question was let's talk about how if you aren't with a church, you don't get help most of the time. I disagree with that. [00:07:29] Speaker B: I do too. [00:07:31] Speaker A: I have yet. And we worked with a lot of organizations, a lot of churches. We spoke at a lot of churches, we were asked to speak everywhere. And we had a lot of affiliations with many organizations, churches included. [00:07:46] Speaker B: I mean really, like if you look at larger organizations or groups that helped us the most, 99% of them were faith based. [00:08:05] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:06] Speaker B: 99% of them came from a church or some type of religious affiliation. And I mean, I'm not faith based. I was born and raised Catholic. Sorry I didn't get to choose that. That's how I feel about it. [00:08:26] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:26] Speaker B: I'm right there as an adult. That is my right to speak. That I don't. The church I grew up in and the little town that I grew up in, the biggest hypocrites in town were serving communion on Sunday afternoon or Sunday morning. Anyway, I'm not faith based. Not at all. [00:08:48] Speaker A: Our organization was not faith based. Yeah. [00:08:49] Speaker B: Our organization was not faith based and it was not faith based. We were originally told when we started and when we were setting things up to be incorporated and going for our 501 that being non faith based would hurt us. [00:09:10] Speaker A: We heard that from a lot of people actually. [00:09:12] Speaker B: Yeah. That we were actually told that it would hurt us. And I said, well, being faith based, being something that I don't believe in, that is not for me. And trying to, it's, it's false. It would be us trying to live in a world that isn't ours. I mean that's. Yeah. Because that's, that's not, that's not what we believe. I mean, do I believe that there's a higher power? That there's something larger than us? Absolutely. [00:09:50] Speaker A: What it is, I have no idea. But you know. [00:09:52] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I. For anybody who listens to this, that knows me from years ago, I did a lot of blogging with Madeline, my life with Madeline. And I used to say in there all the time, I pray all the time to a God I know, to a God that I don't believe in. [00:10:14] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:14] Speaker B: You know, I. With all of this stuff with Madeline. But I mean, I just. We're not faith based. We had so many people from churches that came and told us that's why they loved our organization so much. [00:10:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:30] Speaker B: Well, because we were not. [00:10:33] Speaker A: Because with not being faith based and not having any kind of religious affiliation, most people felt that they weren't excluded or that they didn't have to fit into a certain category or to a certain spot to be welcome with us. [00:10:52] Speaker B: Right. Our peers, not only did our peers not feel like they had to fit into that, our volunteers and our people who helped us didn't feel like they had to fit into that. [00:11:05] Speaker A: Right. [00:11:06] Speaker B: You know, like, yeah, we removed that box that people think that they have to fit in. So, I mean, and I don't. I know it's the thing said that if you aren't with a church, you don't get help most of the time. If anybody ever came to me for financial assistance for something and there wasn't a resource for me to turn them to for like rural and urban housing or whatever, for rent assistance, whatever, I would tell them, google all the churches in town, start calling, start calling, start calling. You never know if they're going to have funds available to help you or if they're not. You don't know. You're going to have to tell your story. You are going to have to tell it and you are going to have to keep telling it until you catch the right person that answers. [00:12:07] Speaker A: And it might just be a case of depending on who answers the phone. That. [00:12:10] Speaker B: Right. Pure fluke. You might get a person who answers the phone that is like, oh, oh yeah, we have an extra $50. I can give you a gas card. [00:12:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:19] Speaker B: Or, you know, whatever, somebody might be. [00:12:21] Speaker A: Going, I don't feel like being bothered with that today. And nope, sorry. [00:12:24] Speaker B: I'm like, literally, it's hit or miss people. I think sometimes people think that, that there's this hidden agenda of places that help or provide things, but only if you have the right beliefs. [00:12:41] Speaker A: If you run into that, let us know. I'm sorry you ran into that. You know, that is not our experience. You know, with as many organizations and as many churches as we've dealt with over the years, I have not seen that to hold true. [00:12:58] Speaker B: I mean, I still, I'M super thankful for a lot of the connections that we have made because, I mean, when I ran into something about a month ago, a little over a month ago, maybe two months ago now, it's been a long fall. Anyway, ran into an emergency situation and I needed to help appear out, and we didn't have the funds, and it wasn't me directly. It was helping them get into a safe place. So my first reach out was to a church. [00:13:35] Speaker A: And it worked. [00:13:36] Speaker B: And it worked. [00:13:38] Speaker A: First phone call. [00:13:39] Speaker B: It wasn't even phone call. I sent a Facebook message. [00:13:42] Speaker A: Oh, okay. But it worked. [00:13:44] Speaker B: But it worked. So, I mean, and had they told me no, I would have just gone to another one. [00:13:49] Speaker A: Right. And they didn't question, you know, was the person affiliated with the church? [00:13:53] Speaker B: No, no, none of those questions were asked. [00:13:55] Speaker A: So, you know, like I said, if you ran into that, I'm sorry you ran into that. That, if that is the case, let us know. I mean, we can, we can. We still have ties to the organizations, to churches and stuff. You know, we've made some very good contacts over the years. We can address these, you know, and. [00:14:12] Speaker B: You know, and the one place that I really, that I have heard from people that they didn't get help or what. Some churches have very specific things that they help with. [00:14:27] Speaker A: Yes. And if it doesn't fall into that category, then chances are pretty good you're not going to get help. [00:14:32] Speaker B: Correct. Like, there's. I'll just say it. Revolution. Resale. They're fantastic. We've donated to them. They have helped our peers. They have helped our peers in recovery. But they're very specific to those who are in recovery. Recovery. Their funding is very specific to that and they're very open about that. [00:14:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:58] Speaker B: So it's like, you know, that would be no different than when people came to us and said, well, I'm housed, but I need. I want a new bed. Well, good for you. Go get one. [00:15:13] Speaker A: Or. Or. Or the equivalent of going to Taco Bell and ordering a hamburger. [00:15:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:17] Speaker A: You know, that's not what they do because they put it out there that what they help with. And if you're going there asking for something that you're going to get turned down. [00:15:26] Speaker B: Right. And you. I mean, I guess if you want. Because people do it all the time, you can blame that organization for being upfront and honest about what they do and you didn't get what you wanted, but that doesn't make them wrong. [00:15:41] Speaker A: Right. All right. So then we had another question. How many people who don't follow typical Religions or spiritual practices are shut down or shut out from helping. And I do know. I think it was mentioned in the comments. [00:15:57] Speaker B: It was. It was very specific. [00:15:59] Speaker A: This was specific to an event that had taken place. It was the. [00:16:07] Speaker B: Overdose Awareness. [00:16:08] Speaker A: Thank you. Overdose Awareness. And it was. House of Spiritual Vibes was originally set up to participate in this, have a. [00:16:16] Speaker B: Training, and they provided a door prize. [00:16:19] Speaker A: Or gift basket or something or whatever. [00:16:20] Speaker B: Something to that effect. [00:16:22] Speaker A: And then when it. When it turned, as it got closer to the event, they were asked not to be there, not to participate. Because it made some people very uncomfortable or very uneasy. [00:16:32] Speaker B: Well, in the screenshots that I saw. [00:16:39] Speaker A: We only caught one side. [00:16:41] Speaker B: Yeah, we're not. [00:16:42] Speaker A: I'm not pointing fingers. I'm not holding blame here on anybody. I only know bits and pieces. [00:16:46] Speaker B: Yeah. House of Spiritual Vibes. I will say, though, because anybody out there listening to me that knows this or knows this. That was like my favorite store in Sheboygan. [00:16:55] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [00:16:55] Speaker B: I don't think they're open anymore, actually. I saw something the other day. I think they're closed. But anyway, which is too bad. Yeah, I love that store. But Nina was very open and had put screenshots out there and stuff. And I'm not gonna get into who was right, who was wrong, who was whatever. I'm not choosing sides between the two of them. But the thing that I do have an opinion on, and trust me, I know opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one. But you don't always need to share. But I'm gonna share. Cause it was brought up, and that's. [00:17:31] Speaker A: What we're here for. [00:17:31] Speaker B: It was brought up, it was questioned. I think that if that was the case, that the other religious churches, whatever, that had tables there, the ones that voiced their concern, that voice their concerns, if that is all true, that they would not be in the same space as somebody else who doesn't hold the same beliefs or who worships in a different way. I think that's disgusting. [00:18:12] Speaker A: That's on them. If you have an issue with that, that's on you. That's not on. [00:18:14] Speaker B: That's on. [00:18:15] Speaker A: That's not on the organization. That's not on the business. [00:18:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:17] Speaker A: That's on you. [00:18:19] Speaker B: I mean, I. I personally am gonna go for. And anybody who's been in our center knows this. I had all my crystals out. I would sage all the time. I peers would ask to be brought. [00:18:34] Speaker A: Into the office because of all hippie voodoo shit. [00:18:36] Speaker B: Where's your hippie voodoo shit? My hippie voodoo shit is nothing, but it was crystals. But crystals, they hold a lot of meaning and they hold a lot of purpose. And I worked super hard to make that a very inviting, very calming space. And when you're open to things, you know, it's super calming. And I didn't have an issue. We had a volunteer for a while, Marian. I loved her. Our peers knew when she came in that they could ask for a prayer and she would come in with her Bible and they would. They would like. Some of them would ask, is Marian coming this week? And I would tell them when she was coming, and they were like, oh, good. And they would do their prayer thing and she would come in with her Bible and she would read with them. Well, let me tell you, my crystal of an ass wasn't threatened by that. [00:19:33] Speaker A: I don't care if that's what you want. More power to it. [00:19:35] Speaker B: That's what they wanted, and that's what she provided for them. [00:19:38] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:19:38] Speaker B: Or Fanny did when she was, you know, they could provide that. That's amazing. I'm not threatened by that. [00:19:44] Speaker A: I appreciate that. [00:19:46] Speaker B: Marian wasn't threatened by my beliefs. [00:19:49] Speaker A: I mean, so if you are threatened by someone else's belief, like I said, that's on you. [00:19:53] Speaker B: Nobody who ever came into our center felt threatened by my Zen den. That was all Buddha and crystals and meditation music. It was the most amazing and calm. Yeah. [00:20:03] Speaker A: Like, you walked in and every stressor that you had surrounding you just melted. It's like, nice. [00:20:10] Speaker B: Yeah. But I mean, nobody ever came in and said, oh, my gosh, this isn't. I mean, I know shit was set outside of them. Oh, yeah, that's all right by somebody. I don't. [00:20:25] Speaker A: I don't care. [00:20:25] Speaker B: I don't really care. [00:20:26] Speaker A: No, it's all good. [00:20:27] Speaker B: You can't. You can't do what we do. Do what we've done. Do what all these other places do. [00:20:39] Speaker A: And worry about what people say. [00:20:42] Speaker B: Right. And worry about what people say or what they think or judge the way other people do it. [00:20:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:20:51] Speaker B: Like, I always used to tell our peers when they would come in. [00:20:57] Speaker A: Like. [00:20:57] Speaker B: If somebody at the Wyoming center made them mad or offended them or whatever, or vice versa. I mean, because they would go to the Wyoming center staff and employees or the library or open Door wherever. If I offended somebody or one of our volunteers did, I'd been known to yell at people. You know, they would go somewhere else. But that's okay. I mean, they all need to have a safe place to vent something. But the people volunteering and working in these places also need to Treat people with dignity and respect 100%. Yeah. And so far, so good this year. Yeah, I've heard nothing bad. [00:21:46] Speaker A: Right. All right. We had another question. Another listener had written and said, why do we have money for police, judges, courts, jails, and prisons, but not for rehabilitation or mental health? And this is one that I really wish I had an answer for. [00:22:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:04] Speaker A: We've seen people go through the same cycle again and again. Homeless police encounter fines, courts warrant jail release, and back on the streets. It's a vicious cycle, I will say, and I know Kathleen can back me up on it. We have an amazing relationship with Sheboygan Police Department. [00:22:31] Speaker B: Yes, we do. [00:22:34] Speaker A: There are a few that we had. I know that I personally exchanged words with. I had asked a couple officers to leave, pay it forward. At one point, I did not like their attitude, and I did not like what they had to say about our peers. So I escorted them out and asked them to leave. But most of the officers we've dealt with have been amazing, and they have built relationships with our peers as well, and they know how to handle them. They know how to deal with it and what needs to be done instead of just, okay, you did this, you're gonna go back to jail. Most of the officers will try to work with our peers and, hey, you know, move along. This is. I know you're doing this. There's probably a few that they're just plain sick of dealing with. I get that. [00:23:24] Speaker B: I get that. I also get that sometimes. I mean, let's be real. Three hots and a cotton, right? [00:23:36] Speaker A: I know a few people that have. [00:23:38] Speaker B: Three hearts and a cot just to. [00:23:39] Speaker A: Get back in there, just to get. [00:23:40] Speaker B: Off the street, and they own that. [00:23:43] Speaker A: They giggle about it when they say. [00:23:44] Speaker B: It because you get super tired of being outside and everything takes so much time. Progress is super slow. The housing lists are super slow. You know, warming center's not open for a month. Okay, well, if I get a disorderly, maybe I'll get to sit for some 30 days for that. [00:24:03] Speaker A: I'll get out just in time for the warming center. [00:24:05] Speaker B: Come on. [00:24:06] Speaker A: They know how to play the game, right? [00:24:10] Speaker B: Because it's their life. I mean, you say play the game, but it's their life. [00:24:15] Speaker A: I didn't mean it as that, but. [00:24:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I know what you meant. [00:24:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:19] Speaker B: But I will also say, with my life coaching certification, because I'll reiterate, for one person out there who doubts my certification, it is very real, and it is recognized by the International Federation of Coaches. So it's very real. [00:24:39] Speaker A: It wasn't by an accredited organization. [00:24:42] Speaker B: Yes. It was not issued for a dollar off of some. [00:24:48] Speaker A: No, I didn't. For the hours and hours and days and stuff. [00:24:51] Speaker B: Anyway. Anyway, that's enough of that consuming my energy. I will. Okay. New Year's is rolling around in a month. Okay. Yeah. So all. I don't know how many people make New Year's resolutions. I don't. They're a waste of my time. I don't do that. But say 20 people make a resolution to lose weight. Okay. The majority of those people aren't going to make it past day five. Of the ones who make it past day five, one year from now, only two of them will still be going on that healthy route. [00:25:40] Speaker A: Right? [00:25:41] Speaker B: Only two. So say we did 10, one out of every 10. [00:25:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:50] Speaker B: So when you're looking at our center and we averaged, during nice weather, 35 people a day. [00:26:02] Speaker A: Much more with colder weather during the. [00:26:04] Speaker B: Winter, it was 70 plus people a day. [00:26:09] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:11] Speaker B: So figure a snapshot in time. So 70 people. [00:26:16] Speaker A: If you go talking one in ten. So you're talking seven people. [00:26:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Seven people out of those 70 a year from now will still be working. [00:26:35] Speaker A: On trying to better themselves on trying. [00:26:38] Speaker B: To just sustain the changes that they've made. [00:26:41] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:42] Speaker B: That they've been able to make. [00:26:43] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:44] Speaker B: They're just trying to sustain those changes. I always laugh when. And people laugh when I say, when I talk about habit change, how difficult it is. I'm like, come on, people, let's be real. If habit change was easy, I wouldn't still be fat or I wouldn't be fat again. And I mean, some people are like, well, that's. I'm like, that's a reality. I've lost the same 50 pounds four times in my adult life. We're coming up on number five. Hopefully it's for good. But, you know, if habit change was easy. [00:27:24] Speaker A: It'S not. Right. Everybody would be doing it. [00:27:29] Speaker B: And everybody is capable of doing it. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Right? [00:27:34] Speaker B: Everybody is capable of doing it. It's having the support, the supports in place to make it sustainable that is hard. [00:27:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:46] Speaker B: Like, I can. If I really sat down, I could sit down and tell you, sorry, this is upset each, like, trauma that caused me to regain my weight. I mean, the last one, I was watching my child die. [00:28:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:09] Speaker B: Literally watching her turn blue in front. [00:28:13] Speaker A: Of me in the hospital, gasping for air. [00:28:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:16] Speaker A: Lips blue. [00:28:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:18] Speaker A: That was a tough one. [00:28:21] Speaker B: And my critter brain reverted to the only thing I could control, and that was what I put in my mouth. I couldn't control My feelings couldn't control. [00:28:39] Speaker A: What was going on. [00:28:40] Speaker B: I couldn't control what was going on. I couldn't control the outcome. I couldn't control. I. I had zero fucking control. Zero. And I mean, people always say, well, you have this certification. Let me tell you, life coaches have life coaches. Therapists have therapists for a reason. I have both. I have both because I understand how our brain works. [00:29:13] Speaker A: And I'm married to a life coach and my therapist is my motorcycle. It's parked in a garage. [00:29:18] Speaker B: Yeah, he listens like shit too. But, you know. [00:29:22] Speaker A: Yeah, so I've been told. [00:29:26] Speaker B: But, you know, so if I can go through all of that stuff or we can from inside of our home where we have jobs and we have security and we have friends and I have access to therapists. I mean, I'll say I have an amazing therapist and she's on speed dial. I have an amazing therapist for Madeline and she's on speed dial. And we are super privileged and super blessed with that. So we have all of these things in place and utilizing all of these things. But yet I need to lose this £50 again. Who the fuck am I to judge our peers for what they're going through? When you're in survival mode, I hold them accountable. [00:30:16] Speaker A: Oh, 100%. [00:30:18] Speaker B: There's a difference between holding somebody accountable and judging them. [00:30:22] Speaker A: Yep. We've never judged. It's not my place to judge. No, I've got my own shit going on. Who am I to judge somebody else? We had another question, kind of moving on a little bit. Has there been any progress finding shelter beyond Salvation army or the warming center? Straight answer. No. Unfortunately, no. But that is why we have transitional programs and why they matter so much. If you remember back in episode 13 when I sat down with Kyla from Homeink, you could hear the heart behind Home Inc. You could hear her passion in what she does. And then in episode 15, I sat down with Corvid, who lives at Home Inc. And is a resident there, in living the program. And I got his perspective and what that was like. And so while there's no other shelters other than Salvation army and a warming center, unfortunately, we do have people like Kyla who are stepping up and we really appreciate that. Are they perfect? No. But they're proof that somebody's trying. [00:31:34] Speaker B: Here's the thing. Anybody who expects any of these programs to be perfect. [00:31:42] Speaker A: Oh, we were far from perfect. [00:31:43] Speaker B: Is absolutely ridiculous. Because we are all human beings. We all make mistakes. We're all learning things every day. We were the only ones that were Lucky enough. Well, and maybe, maybe Kyla, because that program is new. She'd be the closest to comparable. We got to make the rules. I mean, other than our board, I. [00:32:08] Speaker A: Didn'T have to answer to anybody we. [00:32:10] Speaker B: To anybody else, so. But like the Warming Center, Salvation army, they don't. I mean, Salvation army, when we did our contracts and stuff with them, when they share the amount of people they. [00:32:22] Speaker A: Have to answer to is ridiculous. [00:32:23] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. It's crazy. [00:32:27] Speaker A: I don't play well by other people's. No. [00:32:29] Speaker B: I just want to say let's go to London, right? You know, I mean, it's, it's. [00:32:34] Speaker A: We got to pave our own way, which is a good thing. And Kyla's doing much the same thing because there's really no other organization like her right out there right now. So as much of a cool factor as that is that you get to pave your own way and you don't have to answer to somebody. There's an aspect to that too that truly sucks because you have no idea what you're doing and you do it the hard way. Right. [00:33:00] Speaker B: But also, people are a lot more judgy. [00:33:04] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:33:06] Speaker B: You know, if you think like, like if you, if you think that shit didn't go on at our center, you'd be wrong. [00:33:20] Speaker A: Mm. [00:33:21] Speaker B: I mean, anybody who was there knows that I would stand toe to toe with somebody who was drunk, somebody who was not there for the right reasons. [00:33:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:35] Speaker B: You know, if you told your drug dealer that you're hanging out at Pay It Forward, guaranteed, I'm gonna get in between that. Guaranteed. But it took a very short amount of time for word to spread around town. Don't bring that there. [00:33:57] Speaker A: It's not tolerated. [00:33:58] Speaker B: Don't bring that there. Ms. Kathleen will put you in your place. Do not bring that there. And when one of our peers told me that that's what people were saying, I was like, yeah, yes, perfect. Yes. [00:34:10] Speaker A: Mission accomplished. [00:34:11] Speaker B: Yes. So, you know, give some grace because no matter what, there's shit that you deal with once in a while, right? There's shit that you deal with at the Warming Center. There's shit that Kyla has to deal with. There's shit that Sober Livings deal with. [00:34:25] Speaker A: Oh, always. [00:34:26] Speaker B: And everybody deals with it differently. And some of it's publicly acknowledged, some of it's not publicly acknowledged. [00:34:32] Speaker A: There was a lot of stuff that went on that, that at Pay It Forward or behind the scenes that nobody knows of or nobody ever will. [00:34:39] Speaker B: Well, no, because we were able to deal with it Ourselves and we don't owe anybody else an explanation. [00:34:46] Speaker A: No, it was between us and our peers. [00:34:48] Speaker B: You know, I saw that Kyla put a post out not long ago addressing some issues that were, I don't know, blasted by some angry person or some, I don't know the whole story. Honestly, I don't want to know the whole story. I give Kyla huge kudos for taking the time to address those. [00:35:12] Speaker A: But at the same time, why give it your energy? [00:35:14] Speaker B: Because I would have been like, nah, fuck that, I don't have time for that. [00:35:17] Speaker A: No, I got better things to worry about than it. See, and I've always looked at, even from like when I was younger and I've always had the, the idea people are always gonna talk and the mentality that if they're talking about me, that means you're leaving somebody else alone. So let them talk. I don't care. I have nothing to hide it. Nothing that I'm doing, that, nothing that I'm doing is in secrecy. I'm going to put it all out there. You're going to see full well what I'm up to and if you got something you want to say about it, have at it. I don't care. [00:35:44] Speaker B: Well, and here's the thing. I don't see or I never saw when our center was open or any of the things that we were doing. I never saw any of our naysayers or gossips or whatever. I never saw them trying to do what we were doing or trying to help. [00:36:12] Speaker A: We had one at one point that raised all kinds of stink about what we were up to and this and that, that we were just basically just a flop house hangout for people to come watch TV and this and that. So I invited them to come in and talk with me and, and kind of shadow me for a little bit. This and that. And he took me up. He, well, kind of sort of took me up on. He came in, kinda made it to I think the very first table where there was a bunch of people hanging out, sat there and talked to a few people for what, 20 minutes? [00:36:42] Speaker B: Yeah, but these were people that he grew up with. [00:36:44] Speaker A: Yes. And never, never acknowledged my existence, never did anything and then turned up, turned around and walked back out and you know, and it boiled down to, I guess I don't care what his thoughts were about what we did. Anybody that said we were a flop house or we were just there for people to watch TV or this and that it is very clear that you had never walked through the doors and you were never an active part of what we did that couldn't be further from the truth. And we've addressed this in multiple episodes. And, you know, I don't really think we need to dig back into. No, you know, but. [00:37:23] Speaker B: But I am gonna update numbers soon, though. [00:37:26] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I've never cared what people thought. And as Kathleen said, you know, huge kudos to Kyla for doing what she's doing. Just don't give the naysayers your energy. Yeah. [00:37:36] Speaker B: It's not worth it. [00:37:39] Speaker A: Another question we had. Is there anything recreational now that Pay it Forward is an option? Kind of funny that it's the question after we were just talking about not being just a flop house in a TV room or this and that people hang out. Because Pay it Forward wasn't just a building. Right. We were community. We were family. [00:38:01] Speaker B: Right. [00:38:01] Speaker A: Everybody that walked through that, I mean. [00:38:03] Speaker B: We had Crystal coming in and doing art and recovery, and I mean, we constantly had something going on. [00:38:08] Speaker A: Always. [00:38:09] Speaker B: We were working on getting more stuff going on and more structured. And some of that had just started, like, literally the month we got our notice. [00:38:18] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. We had so many different things that were in the works waiting to come expand. And then we were hit with the, you know, geez, we're closing your building. So, you know, we were like, oh, then, no, don't bother now. [00:38:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:38:35] Speaker A: How quickly the world got turned upside down. [00:38:38] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. That's why, you know, like I just said, art and recovery with Crystal, she was what, episode 14. You know, her art and recovery program isn't just about art. It's identity, it's healing and dignity. I mean, she just took over. Cause I had been in. I had stuff in the works. Pay it Forward had stuff in the works. I was the one in all the meetings with the John Kohler Michael Arts center. And that was done. You know, those connections were made through the housing coalition and our peers had artwork on display there. When Lonnie Holly was here in late October and beginning of November, it was so freaking amazing to go there and to see that. So amazing. And they worked on stuff at the Community Cafe with Lonnie. [00:39:43] Speaker A: They had an entire little box full of index cards. [00:39:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Crystal made us cry. [00:39:55] Speaker A: Yeah. We sat there at the art center reading these. [00:39:58] Speaker B: It was every card in that box was. [00:40:04] Speaker A: Asking, what had Payette Forward done for them, helped them with. That was tough reading. But that was why we existed. [00:40:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:17] Speaker A: You know, as I put out in my Thanksgiving post the other day, you know, we couldn't save the world. We didn't reach everybody but we tried hard. [00:40:28] Speaker B: I still would. If the money was there and there was a building I could get my hands on. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Building out there. We're down, but we're not out people. We're still here and we're still. We're still working behind the scenes. We're still, you know, just because we're not in the building, we're not in the public's eye right now, please don't write us off. We are still here. We're still advocating, we're still helping out. We're still doing what needs to be done, just not in such the large scale that we were. You don't just stop doing what we did. That's not possible. When. When. When our peers become such a huge part of your life and you don't just walk away from that. You can't. And, you know, I've made some amazing friends there, and you don't just walk away from that. So we haven't walked away. And we are still here and we're still working. We're just doing a little quieter these days, but we're here. And that kind of brings me into reflections on some of the previous episodes that we've done, how we've gotten to where we are right now and I guess where we're going from here. I've got a few pretty decent interviews kind of lined up that I have in the works. I'll see if they can come to fruition, see if I can actually get them to pan out. They should be some pretty decent ones within the next couple weeks. Maybe the next two, maybe the next three should be really decent ones. I'm hoping I still got several that are planned out. I just got to make the contacts and get them to fall into place. Let's look back to episode eight, when I went and sat down with Jackie at Elevate Yoga. There was a woman who truly, truly inspired me. Her passion, her livelihood, was Elevate yoga. And yet is. Is. Is. I don't want to say was. Is. I'm sorry. Is elevated. But yet her compassion and her empathy for our peers and the people that hung out outside because she was and is pretty much on house central down by the bank right there. That's a pretty popular spot. And she does an amazing job at balancing her business, but yet treating people with dignity and respect. That was truly an amazing interview. If you haven't listened that one, I recommend going back and checking that one out. [00:43:31] Speaker B: Right. That episode proved something that a lot of people really don't believe in. Like the Naysayers have a lot to say about it, but she has proven, gone above and beyond and proven that, that you can protect your business and treat unhoused people like the human beings that they are. And you can. Those two things can coexist. [00:44:01] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [00:44:02] Speaker B: You can do them both at the same time. [00:44:04] Speaker A: And she used that to educate people that walk through the doors. [00:44:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:09] Speaker A: You know, because chance are pretty good. They saw somebody sleeping on a bench outside or in an alley between her place and the bank. And where some people may have been intimidated by that, she used that as a resource, as a tool to educate people to say, well, yes, but, you know, I know these people, or this is why they're there, or this is what we can do. And, you know, instead of judging, say hi. And she was amazing with that. Looking Back to episode nine, when I talked to Pastor Ruth over at St. Luke's United Methodist Church, I have to say that was truly just a fun interview. That was Pastor Ruth's. Her energy, her ambition, her attitude is contagious. It was truly a lot of fun. [00:44:56] Speaker B: I did say totally off topic, but when she did the memorial service for Michael. [00:45:02] Speaker A: Oh, you're right. [00:45:05] Speaker B: Our peer who. Who lost his life to overdose in our center, Pastor Ruth was nice enough to do a memorial because he was their peer also. He was at the women center. Anyway, I left that service, actually said if I ever thought about going back to church, which is funny because I just don't. I would probably go to her church just because I enjoyed that service so much. [00:45:43] Speaker A: And just her attitude, her mindset, her. [00:45:45] Speaker B: Yes. Very, very welcoming. Oh, very, very welcoming. [00:45:48] Speaker A: You know, and she's very real. Oh, yeah. You know, I had asked her, you know, how she got into, you know, this with the homeless community, with the community cafe, and she didn't have any choices. She didn't really have a. She just got kind of tossed in here, going, okay, you're going to be the pastor at this church. Here you go. This is what goes along with that. [00:46:08] Speaker B: So Pastor Cindy started it. [00:46:10] Speaker A: So, you know, like it or not, here it is. It dragged her right into the reality of homelessness. She didn't run. She embraced it. And the chaos, and she learned from that. And, And. And she used that term, those terms quite often through the interview that she was learning as she went. It was a learning process. [00:46:28] Speaker B: We're all learning every day. [00:46:30] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, and another one, you know, if you haven't listened to it by. I mean, check it out. Truly incredible to sit and listen to her and to sit down and talk to her. Episode 10, When We Came up with the painful decision to officially close Pay It Forward, it was originally we. We talked about dissolving the non profit and. And that's what the podcast episode was. We had come out and we said we were going to dissolve 501C3 and we were going to completely just stop and walk away. We did realize at that point that that may have been a little harsh. That may. A little bit, you know, a little quick to decide that. We came back shortly thereafter, I think within about a week or so. [00:47:22] Speaker B: Well, there was nothing quick about it. [00:47:25] Speaker A: No. To the general public, it may have seemed a very quick. To us, it was many, many sleepless nights, many tears, many months and months, many nights of trying to figure this out, trying to work ways around this to make it happen, to keep it going, and it just wasn't working. We were running ourselves into the ground. We were running ourselves ragged and with no end in sight, nothing that was going to change that in any immediate future. So the only thing at that point that we saw was we needed to shut it down. We needed to step back, take a breather from what we were doing. [00:48:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:04] Speaker A: Recoup. [00:48:09] Speaker B: I mean, just a little update on the recouping. Let's see. We finished our last day serving the lunches was September 14th. After that, we had mountains and mountains of stuff to give away to other organizations, to the community to. No, a lot of it was to make sure, I mean, I'll be honest, 90% of our stuff. The. The significant items. [00:48:42] Speaker A: Yes. [00:48:43] Speaker B: That are needed for our peers and that were. [00:48:47] Speaker A: For. [00:48:47] Speaker B: That were donated. And they went to the warming center and the transitional housing unit. [00:48:52] Speaker A: Yes. [00:48:53] Speaker B: Because we knew they went between those two places because they. [00:48:56] Speaker A: Those would be the places that would benefit our peers the most. [00:48:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Direct access to our peers. Because Kyla no longer not only runs the transitional housing, her and her husband do street outreach. [00:49:10] Speaker A: Yes. [00:49:10] Speaker B: I mean, they're out every night doing street outreach. So that was the easiest way to have those things accessible to our peers. Because even though the warming center wasn't open then, the community cafe's open and that's now run by the Wyoming Center. [00:49:24] Speaker A: Some of them went to Jess and Mary too, because there's. They're the ones doing the Sunday lunches. [00:49:28] Speaker B: Yeah, Jess and Mary were our volunteers. [00:49:32] Speaker A: They continued the Sunday lunches. [00:49:33] Speaker B: They continue. They now have Serving Hands. It's a group that they have on Facebook and they do the Sunday lunches. [00:49:42] Speaker A: And they do lunches at Tamarack, lunch lunches at Park Plaza. [00:49:47] Speaker B: Park Plaza. They do monthly things or weekly things, and so they're still out there doing those things. You know, I've been contacted about the hats and mittens and scarves from some of the individuals who came last year and put them out. The hats and mittens and scarves, the ones that were all bagged and ready to go, went to Jess and Mary. They will get them out. Yes, they will get them out. [00:50:21] Speaker A: There are literally thousands. [00:50:24] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:50:25] Speaker A: I probably will be out. [00:50:26] Speaker B: I probably gave them 30 plus garbage bags full of already bagged hats and mittens and scarves. So they're going to take care of those. [00:50:34] Speaker A: And I did see an organization had put some stuff out. [00:50:37] Speaker B: City Vintage put some out before this round of bad weather. We love that. [00:50:43] Speaker A: Thank you, City Vintage. [00:50:45] Speaker B: We also gave a ton of the hats and mittens and scarves to the Wyoming center, the community cafe, Direct Access. So they will have them out. I mean, if you need something, go there and ask. They have them. [00:50:56] Speaker A: They're for whoever. [00:50:57] Speaker B: That's. [00:50:57] Speaker A: That's why they. [00:50:58] Speaker B: They go. That's why they're there. So we gave them to accessible places. And some people have asked, well, why didn't you bring them to your house? Because I don't want all this stuff back in my house. [00:51:10] Speaker A: No. You know how long it took me to get rid of all that stuff out of my house? Holy ghee. [00:51:12] Speaker B: I don't want. I don't want all this stuff back in my house. I. [00:51:16] Speaker A: We're finally starting to get our house back. [00:51:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. We need to just breathe for a little. [00:51:23] Speaker A: My basement, my garage. [00:51:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I. When we first closed, I stayed super involved in a lot of things. I was still showing up at a lot of meetings. I was still having a lot of say in a lot of things. [00:51:36] Speaker A: But that didn't give you the break that you were intending. [00:51:39] Speaker B: I was literally getting nowhere. I was getting nowhere because then I found myself questioning like, yes, I still want input on this. Yes, we still exist, but how do I want our presence to show up? [00:52:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:52:04] Speaker B: And I'll be honest when I say I don't know right now. [00:52:09] Speaker A: Right. And that's it. [00:52:10] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:52:11] Speaker A: We're at a point of lots of unknowns right now. [00:52:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know. So I took a giant step back and I just want everybody to know not all of that was controllable. I had said after a crazy busy October, taking care of storage units, all this other. That I was going to have a no November, I was going to say no to everything. So the weekend of November 1st was chaos. Like, constant. [00:52:43] Speaker A: Yes. [00:52:44] Speaker B: Like that Saturday we presented on a panel at the library for Shabozine Shab, however you say. We. We did that. We dealt with some stuff that was transitional housing that, that. That I prompted. [00:52:59] Speaker A: Yeah, it brought on self inflicted. [00:53:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we can leave it at that. So I dealt with that. And then we had to go to the art center because Lonnie was there and all of her friends artwork was out. [00:53:11] Speaker A: So much for no November. [00:53:13] Speaker B: And then I went back to the. To the transitional housing to help with. And. I'm sorry, I'm laughing now. Well, we kind of were laughing then too, but not. Not at all of it. Cause you kind of have to laugh because what else can you do sometimes? And then the weekend after that, I had like two things going on that week while Madeline was in school, because then that Monday, Nana, our main respite worker, our Madeline's savior, had hip replacement surgery. So that left us without our main source of childcare. And she's still out. So a lot of things that I counted on her for that I couldn't do without her. She needs healing time, so I don't have all of that freedom. And then Scott got sick, like, took him out. [00:54:08] Speaker A: I missed an entire week of work. [00:54:09] Speaker B: Took him out, Missed a whole week of work. Shared it with Madeline. She missed all of a week from school and from work and whatever, you know, And. And Scott's going back to work on Monday. [00:54:25] Speaker A: I did last week. I got my two days in. [00:54:27] Speaker B: But. But over this course of two weeks, it's been. You're going back to work on Monday. Madeline's going to school on Monday. [00:54:36] Speaker A: Full time. [00:54:37] Speaker B: Full days. She's going full days. Knock on wood. That works out really good. And I'm going to come home, muzzle my dogs, and not listen to a single sound or having anybody ask me for anything for five and a half hours till I have to pick her up from school. [00:54:54] Speaker A: Right. [00:54:55] Speaker B: Because it has been chaos. And anybody who knows me knows that I. I need some quiet time. [00:55:01] Speaker A: And, you know, we still like, in the background to other stuff. I've recently got back into a band, which is cool. I got back into. Back in. I mean, I still do my. My solo stuff, but I got back into an actual band because we'd gone out and seen a band and kind of gave me the itch again. So back in the band, I am on the board of another nonprofit in the organization, so that kind of keeps me busy a little bit. [00:55:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:55:25] Speaker A: The nonprofit is McKenzie's mission, if you want to check that out, the website, Amazing organization. So we're staying busy. We're staying. [00:55:34] Speaker B: Right. And I love to go help out at the transitional housing and hang out. Yeah, that's like. And I need to go to the Wyoming center, but they just opened in November, and we'll give them some time to breathe. We just heard how my November's going so far or went. [00:55:47] Speaker A: So. [00:55:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I want to go there and spend some time. Whether I just go hang out or I hit him up on the volunteer list or I'll. I'll be there. But see, I just sidetracked us 8,000 ways. [00:56:01] Speaker A: That's all right. [00:56:02] Speaker B: Sunday. [00:56:02] Speaker A: All right. So that's just a little bit of, like, where we've been, what's been going on in our world. We talked a little bit about Crystal and her art and recovery. [00:56:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:18] Speaker A: Corvid and his perspective on the transitional housing, on how amazing of a program that is. You know, again, huge shout out to Kyle and everybody. That's Kyle and her hubby mainly running that program and the amazing things that they're doing. Your peers that are staying there truly, truly admire you for the work you're doing. And it shows. So keep that up. Amazing job. [00:56:47] Speaker B: You know, each episode reveals something different. We don't get in the law. We don't get into the. It's not about the policy. It's not about the politics. [00:56:59] Speaker A: Nope. [00:57:00] Speaker B: It's just the people. [00:57:01] Speaker A: That's it. [00:57:02] Speaker B: It's just the people. And that's pretty much how we've operated. [00:57:05] Speaker A: That's it. It's always been over what we can do for the people. Not about anything else. Is not for the kudos, not for the accolades. It's just a. Hey. [00:57:13] Speaker B: Right. I always tell people, I don't discuss politics or religion. No, I don't. I don't wanna. We kind of discussed both of those to some extent. But, you know, every story is a reminder that homelessness isn't just tents, sidewalks, or shelters. We like to bring the perspective that it's relationships, identity, trauma, recovery, relapse, second chances, community, and hope. I mean, our peers are family to. [00:57:50] Speaker A: Us and always will be. [00:57:52] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, one of them just joined us for Thanksgiving dinner. [00:58:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:01] Speaker B: Because they're family. [00:58:03] Speaker A: Right. Some of the family. You know, everybody comes into your life for a reason. You know, and I've said this for years, people come in your life for one of two reasons. One, either it's for them to change your life or for you to change theirs. And a lot of what we've done a lot of what we've worked towards, what we've. What we've tried to accomplish, I know has impacted a lot of lives. I know have. Has changed a lot of lives. But it has truly, truly, undeniably changed mine. [00:58:43] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:58:44] Speaker A: You know, in ways that, I don't know, I can never repay. We hear our peers a lot. We just had one the other day. Kathleen got a text. [00:59:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:05] Speaker A: The text was simply, thank you for saving my life. I guess I'm gonna flip that around. How do you know that you didn't save mine? [00:59:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:59:26] Speaker A: You know, I love. [00:59:30] Speaker B: I absolutely love to watch him in such a good place. [00:59:36] Speaker A: Yes. Yep. And I appreciate him for everything he's done and all of our peers for what they've done for us. [00:59:43] Speaker B: Right. [00:59:48] Speaker A: So I guess on that note, you know, not to leave on such a somber, you know. [00:59:54] Speaker B: Sorry. And he shared his cold with me. [00:59:57] Speaker A: I'm such a nice guy. I shared it with her. So thank you to everyone who's asked questions and continues to ask questions, even the uncomfortable ones are necessary. We cannot fix what we're afraid to talk about. If you're listening, keep listening. If you've learned something, share it. And if you've lived this, reach out. Your voice matters more than you know. Remember, keep your heart open and pay it forward.