[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: Welcome to Sheboygan. Stories on house and unheard. I'm Scott labonte. In this episode, we're talking. We're taking the mic to Main Street.
We often hear from those experiencing homelessness, but there's another voice in this conversation. The business owners whose front steps are often the first place that someone sleeps, panhandles, or warms up.
Today we're sitting down with someone who's been quiet but powerful supporter of the work we do here at Sheboygan area. Pay it forward. Jackie, the owner of Elevate Yoga, joins us today to talk about what it means to run a small business in the heart of what many calls unhoused Central. Her studio is located right where the realities of homelessness are most visible, and she sees firsthand the humility, the hardship, and the hope that often goes unnoticed.
We're deeply grateful for Jackie's continued support in our data center and her willingness to meet people with compassion, curiosity, and boundaries.
Today, she shares how she balances being a business owner with being a community ally and how she navigates the complex relationships that come from being right in the middle of the conversation.
Jackie, thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:01:23] Speaker C: You're very welcome. Thanks for asking me to join.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: First of all, first off, could you tell us a little bit about your business and how long you've been part of the downtown community?
[00:01:32] Speaker C: Absolutely. We opened in May of 2021 and have been in the same location ever since. We are just next to the US bank building, which you will see has an alleyway right next door with benches. And the US bank building isn't very busy, so it's a. It's a great spot for meetups and collaborations. I think in that little alley next.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: To us, it is always busy. I know I've stopped and met with a few of the peers in this alley.
[00:02:05] Speaker C: Yes, exactly. So we have been here, like I said, four and a half years, and it has been, you know, a wonderful location, wonderful place to be. I have lots of big windows at the front of the business, so I see a lot of activity all seasons and all walks of life, for sure. But we are a community yoga studio and happy to be downtown.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Absolutely. And with those big windows comes, as we talked about a little bit ago, the fishbowl effect where people walk by and also look in.
[00:02:34] Speaker C: Yes, yes, absolutely.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: All right, so let's talk real. What's your experience been like with the presence of the unhoused folks near your business?
[00:02:44] Speaker C: I have had from just opening in May of 2021. I was here for a couple months prior to that, but hadn't even spent a lot of time downtown.
And in the three to four months that we were preparing to open, I was very surprised by the activity downtown.
[00:03:06] Speaker B: Yes.
Very popular spot.
[00:03:08] Speaker C: It is. And I loved the idea of our location. It was a wonderful opportunity.
[00:03:13] Speaker A: Perfect.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: It is perfect. As you people walk by and see us here it is wonderful parking, wonderful neighbors. And Sheboygan downtown is a fantastic community to have a business, and it really is. But I noticed from day could be one that these benches next to us are popular. And I started to see what I don't think you pay attention to. If you're just a customer or you're just a community member downtown, you don't see the patterns. And you don't see when people walk by, you don't think that much about it. Or if you pass them on the street, you don't. When you're in here for hours on.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: End, however many hours a day.
[00:03:56] Speaker C: Yes, Hours on end, day after day, you start to see and connect with people. Sometimes just by a wave or eye contact, but you start to figure out.
[00:04:08] Speaker B: What'S going on, and you start to see that pattern.
[00:04:10] Speaker C: You do. And, you know, the first. My first emotion toward it is heartbreak.
And I thought I felt very uneducated in that department prior to.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: And I get that that seems to be pretty common consensus.
[00:04:25] Speaker C: But I just. You notice the activity and that they're here when you leave for the night, and they're here again when you get back in the morning, and you can't help but feel heartbroken.
[00:04:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:38] Speaker B: You know, and that's part of, you know, and I think I say this at every episode is that's part of why I'm doing this, is try to educate people and relieve some of that stigma and just let everybody know that they're all people, too.
But in the same token, and that's why I wanted to talk to you, is because you have another hand in the deck. Basically, you've got more at stake here than just the average. This is your livelihood. And having them hanging out around here, granted, they might not interfere too much other than just being present, but everybody that walks through the door sees that and, you know, and they start to think and start to wonder.
[00:05:17] Speaker C: Absolutely. I go through a range of emotion and I will still say I do the same thing today, almost five years later, I find myself.
You feel a little heartbroken. You also feel protective of yourself.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:05:33] Speaker C: Of your business, of my staff, of my students.
And I also have experienced so many different Types of interactions.
And I find myself, luckily, being able to educate anybody that comes in the doors here. And I have so many community supporters in here that are also out there making a difference. They come in here for class. We can all share information.
But it is.
We've talked about this a number of times. There's a stigma, and we as a community have to work on breaking that.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: Yes. Yes, we do.
Some people say that's just part of city life. Others say it's bad for business. What's your honest take?
[00:06:16] Speaker C: I think the snap judgment from students is a negative judgment.
I think it doesn't take much as a business owner, as a community member, to work on clearing that up.
[00:06:33] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:33] Speaker C: And I also think experiences with anyone who seems to be spending a little more time outside this particular area of downtown, you realize that they're not here to make our lives any worse. They are really just looking to live their day.
[00:06:50] Speaker B: They're just trying to survive.
[00:06:52] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:06:53] Speaker C: So I would say there are opportunities for me to educate other people coming in that it isn't bad for business.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: And we appreciate that.
[00:07:03] Speaker C: But you can't help that. People come in and say, do you know there's someone sleeping on the bench over there? I said, yep, I saw him when I came in.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Sure do. And they were there yesterday and probably be there tomorrow.
[00:07:13] Speaker C: Yes, exactly. And that we've also had some scuffles in the alley that get loud. And yoga's not very loud.
[00:07:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:25] Speaker C: These windows aren't very insulated.
[00:07:27] Speaker B: Tends to be quite the distraction.
[00:07:29] Speaker C: Yes. And we've had officers outside Right. On the street in front of us. We have had, just a couple weeks ago, an ambulance and fire truck coming to check on someone who was. Was on the bench. And I'm assuming a friend called, you know, for help.
And so we've had a lot of activity that I would say, you know, if I'm being honest, that's not helpful for a business. Absolutely.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: And I get that.
[00:07:54] Speaker C: But I've also had things that have nothing to do with unhoused, that have felt unsafe. There's stuff happening at the bus stop right around the corner that is just community members. So, you know, it isn't just the unhoused community that presents that.
It really is just part of being in the downtown. It's part of any city. It's not Sheboygan.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: Right. You're gonna get that if you're downtown. You're gonna see everything.
[00:08:19] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: Which kind of perfectly lead into the next question. Have you ever had to call the police or Take action in a tough situation.
[00:08:27] Speaker C: I have not had to call the police.
I have had to lock the door a number of times.
And I have watched the police be called.
We have had one of our male staff members walk out into the alley and ask them to either quiet down, turn down the music, or just.
[00:08:49] Speaker B: You gotta leave.
[00:08:50] Speaker C: Yes. Or just, you know, pay attention to where you are. Which I don't blame them for not, because I just don't think they're ever registering. Like, the world really, the neighborhood really is their home.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: It is.
We talk about that often, actually, that their entire world is just this, you know, a certain so many block radius.
[00:09:10] Speaker C: Yeah. Outdoor. And they're not paying attention to what's next door. This is an open opportunity for them. It does not present an opportunity for them to think, who am I bothering through that window? Because they're. Again, how many times can we say it? They are just trying to survive.
[00:09:28] Speaker B: That's it. And that's, realistically, probably the last thing on their mind. You know, they're trying to get by. May be wondering, you know, where am I going to get something to eat? Where am I going to sleep tonight? Or as I talked about one of the peers, Jimmy, not too long ago, he said something as simple as, where can I use the bathroom?
[00:09:46] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: You know, that may be on their mind as well, you know, so they're probably not as aware of the fact as you had said, you know, that they may be disturbing other people.
[00:09:55] Speaker C: I listened to Jimmy's episode and could very much relate.
That was when we talked to them about being too loud.
And it was especially loud because the class that was happening was a really meditative class.
[00:10:09] Speaker B: So it was, of course, the most inopportune time.
[00:10:12] Speaker C: Yep. Always happens.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: Always.
[00:10:14] Speaker C: But they said, thank you for not calling the police. Thank you for just coming out to talk to us. And I think that was from even sharing that story with the rest of our staff was like, hey, you know, a conversation first is a great idea.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. You know, and you'll find more often than not that they cooperate, you know, and they're willing to either quiet or move on.
[00:10:34] Speaker C: Yes. And, you know, I think part of even the conversations that are happening in this alley kind of right off 8th street aren't always the trouble. We have, you know, a little, I would say, worse experiences further back in the alley and then in that side, kind of the one that goes behind our buildings really is where a lot, you know, that feels unsafe when people are back there.
It's hidden, it's dark. Someone doesn't know I'm back there.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: And anything can go on back there because it's hidden, it's dark, it's out of the way.
[00:11:05] Speaker C: Yes, exactly. So that the only time I actually did talk to a friend who is a police officer about that situation, didn't call the police, and they noted it, and they started to monitor a little bit more, I think.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: Sometimes even just bringing awareness to them, saying, hey, could you kind of just ride by every once in a while? Just kind of pay attention. Yep, that helps.
[00:11:26] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: Awesome.
How do you balance being a compassionate human with protecting your space staff and your customers?
[00:11:36] Speaker C: Such a great question, because I, you know, I've had to fight that sometimes. I am, you know, I'm coming in here as a smaller, single woman often.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:49] Speaker C: And this doesn't.
I don't always know that they're unhoused. It is true. You know, it's not just that community.
It is still, you know, it's dark and I'm alone. And somebody can just recognize that.
[00:12:02] Speaker A: Right.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: It could be anybody.
[00:12:04] Speaker C: There is just a level of safety and a level of concern.
And I think, especially just for women in general, that can come off as not a compassionate response to somebody.
[00:12:15] Speaker A: Right.
[00:12:16] Speaker C: You don't really want to strike up a conversation or open the door.
Literally and figuratively, as I, you know, sometimes it's dark when I'm coming and going. It's earlier, it's late, and I'm by myself. And as we've talked, this is a fishbowl. People can see what's going on inside. And all you have to do is recognize that I'm here by myself. So I have my personal safety. I have really had to pay attention.
And also, you know, from a business owner perspective, I have staff members that I have to be open with and communicate with and also protective of.
So we have had so often to ask people to move, to leave. I've had people call me from their car and say, there's someone standing in front of the door. There's someone sleeping in front of the door. What's my approach?
And I don't always know the answer. And also, sometimes I'm angry because I don't want to have to do this. This is. There's enough to deal with as a business owner.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: And you don't want to have to be that person.
[00:13:17] Speaker C: No, that's when I want to call the police, because I don't want to be. And it is really hard to take the feelings that you have in that situation.
One of them always Being compassion. But how does it come across as when you're trying to protect and when you're trying to operate a business? This place is my love and my livelihood. I love what I do. I feel so grateful to have this every day. To be able to do this, yes, to be able to do this. But I also have, you know, protection of myself, protection of this space. And it's a tough look. If you're coming to class in the morning and there's someone asleep in front of the door, do you turn around and go home? Because that doesn't feel safe. And then how do I get them to come back and tell them it's okay?
But I also just came from a warm bed, and I came from a comfortable house, and I'm likely making a cup of coffee and have a bathroom.
And that, of course, you know, it puts perspective really quick to the fact that they looked to your front door as the place that felt like the most comfortable.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: You know, I had mentioned that I think it was the last episode, probably every one of them, actually, when we get, like, stormy weather or the cold sets in, you know, I'm laying in my comfortable bed, and I'm thinking of all of our peers that are out there. Are they safe? Are they warm? Are they dry? You know, and then I don't sleep because then it starts running through my head, you know, and it's horrible. And so as a business owner trying to balance that, I can't even imagine.
[00:14:51] Speaker C: And it is, you know, you think, like, what's my. What would my breaking point be?
In the weather, in the frustration, in the shame, in the feeling down on yourself? What would my breaking point be? And it would have been long before any of theirs. I'm sure of it, because of the privilege that I have and the hard work that I've put in to my life to have what I have.
But I understand all of the components that come in. It isn't always just relatable to hard work, and it isn't always just relatable. It's, you know, so many pieces. As I've been learning so much more, too, from the podcast.
[00:15:29] Speaker B: There's so many different facets to it that really come into play, you know, that bring about the homelessness situation. You know, we've had peers that were perfectly comfortable in their place, had one medical issue come up, end up in the hospital, and then you get that, you know, you start. You get behind on this bill or on this one, and before you know it, you get that snowball effect. And it just gets overwhelming. And you.
You're out on the street.
[00:15:53] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:15:53] Speaker B: And. And then once you get that, then you have the eviction on your record, and then nobody wants to rent to you at that point.
[00:15:59] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: And. And it's just.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: It.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: It's tough.
[00:16:02] Speaker C: Yeah. It's. It happens quick, and it's hard. You know, I think it's in our nature to make a judgment. So you. You look at the person in front of the door, whether they're. They've dropped their wagon full of things and they're just taking a break, trying to think about where they're going next. And here, you know, that feels like an inconvenience to me because I'm trying to go into work, and what an inconvenience in my world. And I think of the multitude of inconveniences in their world, and all I can do in that moment is take a breath and say, excuse me. And can you just scoot off to the side so that, you know, my students can come in for class? And sometimes it's, you know, can you. Can you smoke your cigarette in the corner? Because that's not what people want to walk through on their way into.
[00:16:49] Speaker B: First impressions are huge. You know, that's not the first thing you want to see when you're coming through the door.
[00:16:54] Speaker C: But I really do genuinely try to lead without that first judgment. I let that pass. Right.
[00:17:02] Speaker B: But human nature.
[00:17:03] Speaker C: Yeah, we have them. I think, you know, it's helpful for me that I've been here long enough to see a lot of. And interact with them in a lot of different ways, and also not to be in positions where I have felt unsafe or uncomfortable. And I can continue to share that with my staff and my students because really, it is still such a beautiful place to work and to live.
And if we can do little things along the way to put ourselves out there and help the situation, then there is going to be one less person standing in front of our door blocking our way in.
[00:17:39] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:39] Speaker B: And I apologize for the wagon things, because when we found out that they were closing our doors, the first thing we did, we ordered backpacks, wagons, bike trailers.
We always had lockers and stuff that people could put stuff in and they could roam the streets.
I don't want to say as an ordinary person per se, but without all of the baggage, without it, you know, so they could blend in and not be singled out.
And with us closed, they had no place to put anything. And we were concerned with, you know, they're lugging around all this stuff so let's get them all wagons and backpacks and bike trailers and. Yep, we heard the same thing from the library. You know, do you know how many backpacks or wagons? And I'm like, sorry, Sorry. You know, that's us.
[00:18:20] Speaker C: It is, yes. You don't have to apologize to me. If that wagon has helped their life, then we can ask them to move.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Have you ever had a moment that changed your perspective where someone experiencing homelessness surprised you or made you see things differently?
[00:18:37] Speaker C: I had. I would say this was maybe last summer.
I had a conversation with two people and their dog sitting in the alley. As I.
As I mentioned, I don't know who that is. I'm sure you do.
I don't go out my back door into that alley because it feels too much like there's no windows. Like I said, you know, it's a. So I like to go through this way. I can peek around the corner. People see me, and I get to our dumpsters to put my trash in.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:09] Speaker C: So I was walking through, walked down the alley, and I walked past them and said hello and their sweet little dog. And on the way back, we just, you know, all of us kind of had a little conversation. And it was one of those, like, I almost kept going, just the, hello, how are you? Have a good day? Almost kept going.
And 25 minutes later, I found myself still sitting, petting the dog, having this wonderful conversation.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: Cool dog.
[00:19:36] Speaker C: Too cool. Really cool dog. Having a wonderful conversation about just why. Why there. And I didn't ask. And they shared. But I think it was so cool to see, as we've talked about already today and in the past, what just a little bit of compassion does.
And we at that point had talked about what an opportunity it would be to offer some yoga classes for people who can't afford it. And we do offer a free yoga class once a month. We open those up. And we open them up either for free to just attend or if you'd like to donate to a charity of our choice, it's whoever's teaching gets to choose the charity. And.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: And we were the.
[00:20:23] Speaker C: You were.
[00:20:24] Speaker B: And we appreciate that.
[00:20:25] Speaker C: Two months ago, maybe it was. It was. It's really a. A cool experience. We found ourselves educating people on nonprofits in the area and also being able to share and talk about them right as we're promoting the class and then also open it up if you can't afford to come because it is hard. Again, that ju position of it being a business and also wellness modality. You'd love to Be able to share it for free.
[00:20:49] Speaker B: But however, that doesn't pay the bills.
[00:20:52] Speaker C: Doesn't pay the bills. I wish it did, but it was just such a warm conversation.
And I felt like every time they came to sit over here, we now had a totally different view of each other. It was a wave, it was a hello. It was a comfort level.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: The familiarity.
[00:21:12] Speaker C: Yes. Of seeing each other and then also watching who else they interacted with, knowing it was just comfortable and safe.
And, you know, I really think it opened up my eyes to the reasons you can be on the street.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:21:30] Speaker C: And I really think that was. It was good for me. And it feels like a great story to always be able to share if anybody is concerned about who's sitting over there.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: And that again, goes to show, you know, we always say too, that everybody's just one crisis away from being in that same predicament. And I think that's where a lot of the negativity and a lot of the judgment comes from. Because people know that at least maybe not even consciously, but they're aware of that.
And it scares a lot of people to know that it takes one. And somebody's crisis may need to be a whole lot bigger than mine. You know, I don't think mine would be huge and I'd be in the same predicament. At least I'd have a place to go though, I think.
[00:22:09] Speaker C: I. I bet.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: You know, but it happens quickly.
[00:22:14] Speaker C: Yeah. Yes. And for reasons that wouldn't even cross your mind, Right?
[00:22:20] Speaker B: Definitely.
Do you feel that there are enough resources in Sheboygan to support both the unhoused and downtown businesses?
[00:22:28] Speaker C: I don't.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: I don't either.
[00:22:31] Speaker C: I don't.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Not at all.
[00:22:33] Speaker C: And there's such a frustration to that because I don't know what to do.
And I think as just a community member and then add on top of that downtown business owner. I wish I knew what to do. Which is why we picked you as our donation based nonprofit for the month.
If we can do something small and at least get resources, your direction and awareness, your direction.
But I just wish I knew what to do about the answer to that question because I just don't.
[00:23:13] Speaker B: I don't either. I do know we're part of a group called Mr. Wendell's Collaboration, which is ideally targeted towards, you know, there's a group of us that work with the unhoused population and with the local businesses as part of trying to get the business is educated on interactions on, you know, what needs to be done, how to avoid conflict, how to Treat people while still balancing your business.
[00:23:41] Speaker C: Yes.
I've been to a couple of those meetings at the library, and that was so great for me to learn about, too, because when I first opened.
Exactly that. There aren't enough resources for this. I didn't even know who to ask about what I should do because I didn't want it to be the police.
[00:24:03] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:04] Speaker B: You don't want to involve that aspect of it.
[00:24:05] Speaker C: No, I. Instead of just calling for, you know, authority or calling for help, I want to be a solution. How can we.
I see it with my own eyes every single day. So do my students and so do my teachers. How do we become part of the solution? Solution vs roll our eyes at somebody, you know, in the way, saying, oh, it's.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: They're out. Out there again.
[00:24:32] Speaker C: Right? Yes, exactly. And especially early on, I didn't. I didn't even know where to tell people to go for a bathroom when they asked to use mine. Because as we've talked about already, it's really hard once you say yes.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: You. You open that door and. Yeah, that's it.
[00:24:51] Speaker C: And it isn't that I don't want to.
It is.
Our bathrooms are in the way back of our space, and our doors are only open.
We don't have, you know, open retail hours. Our doors are only open when we have class. So that would mean they have to interrupt the class, which people have paid for, and walk through our space. And then also I'm.
I'm dealing with whatever they've chosen to use. I don't know them. I don't know that I can trust them.
[00:25:19] Speaker A: Right.
[00:25:19] Speaker C: And that's with anybody.
[00:25:20] Speaker B: Well, and then with the interruption, you know, yoga, meditation, that's kind of relaxing, kind of quiet. You don't need somebody traipsing through your door constantly.
[00:25:28] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: And interrupting everything.
[00:25:29] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: It kind of ruins the whole vibe.
[00:25:32] Speaker C: Yes. And we've had people come in and ask if they can just sit down.
And you can.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: You can't because you're not on display here.
[00:25:40] Speaker C: Right. I want to say yes, but I can't. And, you know, it scares some of the instructors to have a stranger. And I don't care who the stranger is. A stranger come in and ask to use the bathroom and ask to, you know, for directions. Easy. But also an interruption to not know where to go when it's cold, it's raining, it's hot.
I could go on, as you know, but we don't know what the answer is. I don't know what to say. So I had to Learn. Where do I tell you to go? Where's the first place I offer for you for a public bathroom? Whereas the first place I offer for you if you're looking for shelter. So even that felt like resources were low.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: Yes. I know there had been talks previously about trying to get more of those little porta Potties and be able to put those in different areas.
Whether it's going to come to fruition or not, I'm not sure. You know, there's a lot of things, unfortunately, that get talked about that the follow through just isn't there for whatever reason. It is. And I know there's no easy fix to this. There really isn't, unfortunately.
But we're all just trying to navigate it and do what we can.
[00:26:55] Speaker C: Exactly. And what an eye opening situation to be in. To think as a business owner, I have to put a sign up that says no public restrooms. As a human being, I can't tell you more than five times in my life that I've ever been in a situation where I didn't know where I could go to the bathroom.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: Right.
[00:27:15] Speaker B: And we take that for granted, you know, because it's something we don't think about, whether it be home, whether it be anywhere else even. I guess I don't want to sound harsh, but like, even like us walking down the street, you can walk into a business and ask to use a bathroom, you know, and most places aren't going to judge. You aren't going to question your purpose of being there other than okay, they need to use the bathroom.
Whereas if you come in with a backpack or dragging a wagon or something of that sort, automatically thoughts are everywhere else. And it's understandable, you know, so we take that for granted, you know, and I'm just as guilty of that.
[00:27:52] Speaker C: Yes. And trying to work past it.
But from both perspectives, I think there needs to be some understanding too.
And I, I mean, I'm sure you've had plenty of conversations with all of them about it as well. But it's like if I could say yes, I would.
[00:28:11] Speaker A: Right.
[00:28:11] Speaker C: But I just, I can't start.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: No, you certainly cannot.
No, that's not an avenue you want to go down.
[00:28:19] Speaker C: Right.
[00:28:22] Speaker B: Right. I can only imagine where that would lead to.
What would help from city leaders, nonprofits, or the community to make things work better for everyone.
And I know we kind of just touched a little bit on this.
[00:28:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
I still think the number one thing that would be helpful for everybody is having more even year round access to the public bathrooms that do exist. You Know, I find that they are locked early.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: Yes, they certainly are. We hear about that a lot.
[00:29:02] Speaker C: Yes. And if, if you're open to, to maintaining them in good weather, why are you not open to maintaining them in the worst weather?
[00:29:15] Speaker B: You still need to use the bathroom.
[00:29:17] Speaker C: Yep. And.
And I don't like to speak on things. I've never, I've never done any research on this and I don't even know the person in, within the city that you, you know, approach this with. Which is why, you know, it's just an interesting learning being down here, finding the right people and understanding the resources.
But I think getting them access to bathrooms and shelter.
[00:29:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:29:48] Speaker C: How do we get back there?
It's your every single day question.
But I think, you know, putting a resource on, really getting you the support back, because that's where I have seen the biggest change is on day one of knowing that your building was closed. The activity on the street was a whole different world again.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: The entire dynamics changed.
[00:30:18] Speaker C: It really did. The, the look on people's faces for that first week, watching them walk around already in the situation they're in, but then losing the one thing that they had that kept them stable.
[00:30:36] Speaker A: Right.
[00:30:37] Speaker B: Consistency was just yanked.
[00:30:39] Speaker C: That gave them community. I know I am lucky enough to know what community feels like.
They had it and then got it taken away. And how do we get it back? Because that's foundational for them to be able to take any sort of forward step.
[00:30:56] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely.
And, you know, the amount of people that we've seen spiral and really kind of dropping off without that consistency, without that accountability, it's just very disheartening. You know, we see that. I can only imagine, you know, and we're trying with being in Salvation army, but with the small window of time that we're open and only the certain resources that we have, there's only so much we can do. And we still, in the evenings, in fact, your alley, we ride around and we bring food, you know, water, whatever we need to. And it's funny because there was one of the times in this back alley, there was a bunch of people all dressed, suits, whatever it was, and we had dropped off some food and the couple with the dog was out there.
And instead of kind of bringing attention to the fact that they were there, Kathleen walks up and she says, doordash order.
You know, so it was very inconspicuous, very. And they were like, very pleasantly surprised. Like, thank you for doing that and why bring any more attention than you need?
So she came back all giddy she's like doordashed.
[00:32:11] Speaker C: Yes. I mean, that is something that they don't even have the luxury of calling doordash and feeling.
[00:32:19] Speaker B: Where do you deliver to? Oh, the corner of such and such, you know.
[00:32:21] Speaker A: Right.
[00:32:22] Speaker C: Yeah. The ALLEY Next to U.S. bank.
It's, you know, giving them those pieces of normalcy and that feeling of community again.
And I also just think from a, you know, hygiene perspective, that's. I can't imagine going in for a job interview is so far from your mind.
When you don't have a spot to go to the bathroom, wash your face and brush your teeth.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: Right.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: If you think you look good, you feel good.
[00:32:55] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:55] Speaker B: You know, and how do you, like you said job interview, if you haven't been able to use the shower in a while or, you know, wash your clothes.
[00:33:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:33:05] Speaker C: Who.
[00:33:06] Speaker B: And I guess I don't want to pass judgment, but who as a business owner is going to say, yeah, I'm going to hire you.
[00:33:11] Speaker C: Right. This feels like a.
[00:33:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: You'd be a great fit here.
[00:33:14] Speaker C: You know, it's like a great business decision, you know, and you don't know how you're going to get here. I don't know how you're going to get here.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:33:19] Speaker C: You know, so, yeah, I think, you know, getting the, the first order of business is, is getting to the basics.
[00:33:28] Speaker B: And that's getting your basic human needs met.
[00:33:30] Speaker C: Yes. How to, you know, how do we support getting there?
[00:33:34] Speaker A: Right.
[00:33:35] Speaker B: You know, even if we had a public open forum, you know, maybe bring in some of our unhoused peers, some of the local businesses, some of the organizations that work with them, and basically just sit down and talk. What can we do to fix this? What can we do to help?
I don't know.
[00:33:52] Speaker C: I know, I know. I wish there was a great answer and we all just needed to, you know, everybody needed to say this was, this is the solution. Here it is. Why aren't we doing it? Yeah.
[00:34:01] Speaker A: Right.
[00:34:02] Speaker C: But it really, you know, I've thought about you a lot in these last couple of months. First of all, knowing what you're going through and trying to rebuild and regroup.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: And we're busier now than when we were open 12 hours a day.
[00:34:15] Speaker C: I can only imagine, you know, but I've also thought about how the communication is both directions, you know, from business owners.
What do we need to do? But also on their end, how can they provide us a level of respect too?
And this is, this is not a two way street.
[00:34:39] Speaker B: It is, absolutely.
[00:34:40] Speaker C: And this is not in, this is in any Single walk of life that you get compassionate and kind and caring people, and you get jerks.
[00:34:49] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[00:34:50] Speaker C: They're. They're everywhere. They're, you know, driving down 8th street right now. Those kinds.
And.
But we have, as we talked about earlier, had conversations with people in the alley, and we've gotten in the last four and a half years, every kind of response and, you know, from literally from A to Z. And I just think the relationship of 8th street business owners, community, visitors even, would be so different if we all had a better understanding of how it feels to have those positive interactions and to just have that next step in mind, which I have to do when I am, you know, you think past the judgment or past the frustration of. This isn't what I wanted to deal with. It's not what they wanted to deal with either.
[00:35:44] Speaker A: Right.
[00:35:45] Speaker C: But when you say, you know, hey, we have a really quiet class on Sunday nights, you know, can you guys just be a little more respectful of your noise level?
[00:35:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:35:54] Speaker C: And when they say, you know, don't tell us what to do, and I'd.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: Imagine you get that, too.
[00:36:00] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, this is public property. And don't you tell us what to do and don't. And, you know, it's. That's the thing where you say, okay, well, now what I try.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: I'm trying to be nice. I'm trying to be compassionate here and have a civil conversation, but you won't allow this.
[00:36:18] Speaker C: Right.
And I don't know when it's gonna flip.
[00:36:22] Speaker A: Right.
[00:36:22] Speaker C: And I'm alone. And, you know, where do I. Now I walk back in here, and I'm standing in my fishbowl, and you can.
[00:36:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:36:30] Speaker B: You can see, you know, every move you make in here.
[00:36:32] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: Somebody's watching.
[00:36:34] Speaker A: Right.
[00:36:35] Speaker C: And stuff that feels like it's happening outside still. Really, we're getting a lot of that on the inside. We can hear the fights happening. We can hear all of the different, you know, music and conversations.
[00:36:50] Speaker B: And I'd imagine it's a pretty colorful language, too.
[00:36:53] Speaker C: Very colorful language.
You know, lots of sense of smoke.
And as I mentioned, these walls don't.
They don't hold much back.
[00:37:06] Speaker A: Right.
[00:37:06] Speaker C: So these windows.
[00:37:07] Speaker B: There was a motorcycle that just went by, and you could hear.
[00:37:10] Speaker C: Perfect. Clear as day.
[00:37:11] Speaker A: Clear as day.
[00:37:12] Speaker C: Which part of that we love? You know, we love the activity of being down here. When we first opened it, it was a little distracting, but now it just feels like this is what you get.
[00:37:23] Speaker A: Right.
[00:37:24] Speaker C: This is. It's all part of the bustling downtown. And it feels great, and it Convinces us while we're doing yoga that we can focus on what we're doing and everything can keep happening outside and we can still bring our focus inside.
[00:37:37] Speaker B: And reiterates the reason why you're here.
[00:37:39] Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely. In a. In a really great way. But, you know, sometimes it is like, well, that could be avoided and let's try to avoid it.
But there is a, you know, just like a mutual human respect that sometimes I think, you know, I wonder if Scott could help me in this situation. You know, could he send out a reminder to some of his friends?
[00:38:00] Speaker B: We certainly could. You know, we would be willing too, if it's something that you might think is beneficial. If you had a, you know, decent sized class in here, we could come in here and speak with the class, educate them. We speak at churches and schools and all kinds of different things, trying to educate the general public. We would be happy to come in and do something like that.
[00:38:18] Speaker C: That would be great.
One of our elevator community classes that I was talking about, the free classes that we open up for donation. I would love to open it again to you and then have you come in and talk to the class. Because that makes a really big difference when people can start making a connection, you know, face to face connection too. But, you know, we're all ears also to how can we be of support and how do we grow in our communication and interaction and, you know, what kind of effort can we put in to help them feel comfortable and help them understand too, that some of the things that we ask really are because people have paid for an experience.
This is my livelihood and I really do work hard to keep the atmosphere what it is. And I always want it to feel safe. And it isn't that they are the reason. It is just, I think something unknown just doesn't feel safe to be.
[00:39:22] Speaker B: People fear the unknown. It's human nature.
[00:39:24] Speaker C: Yes, right.
[00:39:25] Speaker B: I'm hoping that, that this episode will fall on some of the proper ears and maybe some of that we can get resolved, maybe bring around some additional education classes, some meetings that we can bring people together and hopefully educate enough to, I don't know, make a little bit of change, make a little bit of a difference. I don't know.
[00:39:46] Speaker C: Right.
We just.
How far can we ride on hope?
We just keep hoping.
[00:39:52] Speaker B: And a lot of this, I'm a schoolteacher. I'm, you know, I'm learning as I go too.
Every day we do our Sunday lunches. We had our lunch yesterday in the parking lot at Salvation army and there was people. I don't know, you know, and so I get that. And there was a couple that, you know, I had kind of uneasy feeling about. In fact, I looked at Kathleen, I'm like, it's not sitting right with these folks, but we don't know them. When we had our center open, we had intake paperwork, we ran background checks on absolutely everybody.
Mainly not out of, you know, I don't want to judge you. I don't want to. Kathleen spends 95% of her time there alone.
And we need to know that her being there alone was safe.
[00:40:35] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:40:35] Speaker B: You know, if she's a certified life and health coach, she is going to approach somebody differently if they have a violent background, as opposed to somebody that's got maybe parking tickets or, you know, whatever else it may be. You know, she's not. Because she usually just doesn't think. She just jumps in and like, hey, what are you doing? And she's trying to break things up. And. And that approach may change a little bit if somebody's got this, you know, several assault and batteries or whatever else. And so we do it just as a safety aspect. So I get the whole thing with the business.
[00:41:05] Speaker C: Right. And at some point it's like, if I'm not going to protect myself, who is?
[00:41:10] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:10] Speaker C: So you just, by the time you.
[00:41:12] Speaker B: Call somebody, it's a little late.
[00:41:13] Speaker C: Yes. You just have to know that you're in it for protection and safety and self awareness. Yeah. And it is, I think, just back to the unknown. And, you know, until I know you. But how do I get to know you?
[00:41:25] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:26] Speaker B: Where is that line drawn that you can actually.
[00:41:28] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:41:31] Speaker B: I'm so glad we were able to sit down and do this.
If you could tell listeners one thing about the reality of running a business in this space, what would it be?
[00:41:43] Speaker C: I think just that you have to have the right balance of tough skin and compassion, an open heart, an open mind, but also that level of protection again. And every day is totally different downtown.
[00:42:04] Speaker B: Oh, it sure is.
[00:42:05] Speaker C: Every day is a learning.
And I have continued to find that, you know, what's the saying? You get more bees with honey.
[00:42:16] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:42:16] Speaker C: Right. Yep. So, yes, it's really just been, if I lead with the right intention and I continue to just work on the vision of what this space is supposed to be, that we'll get there.
[00:42:30] Speaker B: And I had thought about that when you talked about the positive interaction you had with the couple out there with the dog, on how that changed the perspective. But then that positive interaction led to other positive interactions and through snowball effect, hopefully you know, they would also let people know, and you would know and be able to educate your students and, you know, your coaches or whatever.
And that would lead to more. Which would change the attitude then, of most of the people that are hanging out here.
[00:43:01] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:43:02] Speaker B: Knowing that you're not against them, that you're willing to work with them and have that relationship, per se with.
[00:43:09] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:43:09] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:43:10] Speaker C: I would say that interaction for me encouraged me to continue to say good morning versus nothing.
And I think sometimes that surprises them.
[00:43:22] Speaker B: I would imagine most people just walk by and ignore them.
[00:43:24] Speaker C: Yes. And just a simple good morning.
I also think it has. You know, it's. In the last year, that's changed a lot. And in the last six months, in having more understanding of the work that you and Kathleen are doing and following along in your story, knowing when the center closed and that they didn't have anywhere to be and putting myself in.
I can't put myself in their shoes, but I can put myself in at least a vision of what I do have and what they don't. And those two things feel really far away.
[00:44:01] Speaker A: Right.
[00:44:02] Speaker C: There's a big gap.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I try to, as much as possible, full transparency with everything we do, whether it be from the center being closed to where we're at now with the discussions with the Catholic Charities, building our time in Salvation Army. I try to keep the public posted on absolutely every step of the way.
Some of it's good, and some of it's not so good, but it's all part of what we do.
[00:44:27] Speaker C: And it is really, you know, I try so hard to lead with compassion, as I said, lead with good intention. And I have worked really hard to just educate in here. When people come in and say, you know, the. Do you know someone sleeping out there? Or, wow, there's a lot of people in your alley. Or I came from that apartment building back there, and there's a lot of trash. That's the other thing. You know, there's a lot of trash, and that makes people frustrated, and they don't even care who did it. It isn't. It isn't at anyone.
[00:45:03] Speaker A: Right.
[00:45:03] Speaker C: It's a disappointment to a beautiful space that we have that a lot of people work to keep clean.
So then when you see a big group of people, it maybe wasn't them, but where they choose to spend their time and what we watch and what we hear gives us an impression and.
[00:45:24] Speaker B: A judgment, you know, and if there's that large of a group of people, pick up the stuff.
[00:45:27] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:28] Speaker B: You know, it's really not that difficult.
[00:45:29] Speaker C: Right.
You know, those are the things you need to know to get from. From where you are to where you want to be.
[00:45:37] Speaker B: 100%.
[00:45:38] Speaker C: We can all learn from that, right?
[00:45:40] Speaker B: Definitely. Which ties in perfectly perfect to the next question.
If you could say one thing to someone who's unhoused and sitting on your doorstep right now, what would it be?
[00:45:54] Speaker C: I think that I would want them to know that we do genuinely care about their well being and something that we can do to support and to help.
If we knew what it was.
[00:46:11] Speaker A: Right.
[00:46:12] Speaker C: If I knew what I could do to help you, I would love to.
[00:46:16] Speaker A: Right.
[00:46:17] Speaker B: And we appreciate that.
[00:46:18] Speaker C: I don't, you know, it, it.
There is.
There are things I need to do to continue to keep my people safe.
[00:46:28] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely.
[00:46:29] Speaker C: But if there was something I could do, I wish we knew what it was because we would do it.
[00:46:34] Speaker A: Right.
[00:46:35] Speaker C: So we're just doing our best and would love to be able to live mutually. Mutually respectfully. And if this feels like a safe place, this alley right here feels like a safe place. That makes me feel like I'm doing my job.
[00:46:52] Speaker A: Right.
[00:46:52] Speaker C: That we make you feel comfortable and safe and welcome.
Please help us feel the same.
[00:47:00] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, that is awesome.
I will definitely pass that along.
[00:47:06] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:47:09] Speaker B: That's kind of a double edged sword, I guess, you know, it is.
[00:47:12] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:47:13] Speaker C: Every day it is, you know, and it's. There's. It's some of the same people and it's different people and it's, you know, a collection of reasons. But really, if this feels like a safe place to be, then I don't want to wish for you to be somewhere else.
[00:47:28] Speaker A: Right.
[00:47:29] Speaker C: But help us feel the same.
[00:47:30] Speaker B: Yes, we will definitely work on that.
All right, so no easy answers today. Just honest conversation about the tension, the humanity and the hope sitting right outside of our front doors.
If you run a business, if you work in a storefront, if you're wondering how to be part of the solution without losing yourself in a struggle, this one was for you.
Thank you for tuning in to Sheboygan Stories on How's an unheard? Subscribe, share and stay connected. You can find
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And until next time, see people, hear stories, and as always, keep your heart open and pay it forward.
[00:48:18] Speaker A: Sam.
