Faith and the Frontlines

[00:00:22] Speaker A: All right, welcome back to Sheboygan Stories unhoused and unheard. I'm your host, Scott labonte. In every community, faith groups are often on the front lines, feeding people, offering shelter, or simply listening when no one else will. But what does it look like when your calling meets crisis, when compassion comes face to face with real human need and real human limits? Today, we're joined by someone who knows that struggle firsthand. Someone who's lived their faith not just in the pews, but on the streets, in church basements, and over coffee with the folks that the rest of the world walks past. Let's start with your name and your connection to the faith community here in Sheboygan, if you would, please. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Yes, my name is Ruth Halstead and I am a United Methodist pastor. Currently, I'm the pastor of St. Luke United Methodist Church, which is in downtown Sheboygan. [00:01:12] Speaker A: Thank you. And not only that, but we have the community Cafe here as well. Wintertime houses, the warming center. So you have a very unique role in this unhoused community. [00:01:25] Speaker B: Mm, yeah. One that I did not expect when I came here. [00:01:29] Speaker A: Just kind of thrown into it. So here you go. [00:01:31] Speaker B: Yep. Yeah. [00:01:33] Speaker A: Wow. Well, so far you seem to be doing very well. [00:01:36] Speaker B: Thank you. Learning. Learning a lot. Every day. [00:01:39] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, we did too, when we started pay it forward. A lot of oops, let's not do that again type things, you know, learn the hard way. But it is what it is, I guess. What drew you. What first drew you to serve the unhoused? [00:01:56] Speaker B: So I tell people it found me. [00:02:00] Speaker A: That makes sense. [00:02:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So as a United Methodist pastor, we are appointed, so we're told where we're going. I came to St. Luke last July, so I've been here just over a year. And. And when I was getting the appointment, learning more about the church, I learned about the community cafe. So the free meal six days a week, and I was pretty excited about that. Seemed like a really cool ministry. I was excited to get to be with people through that. But that one's not quite as in the midst of everything as where we were several months later. So this was a long time process. This was started much before me to get the Sheboygan County Warming center into our building. It was started before I got here and was more than just me being a part of it. I really was sort of along for the ride, listening, learning about this community and this ministry. But I was excited about it. And when we eventually agreed that we were going to give this a go for a year, I said, okay, you Know, I need to do some learning. Yeah. So I was doing some reading. I was talking to friends that I knew from seminary that were doing lots of stuff with unhoused folks. And then I was volunteering once a week with the Warming center. Yeah. And I say it found me because. Right. As the pastor of this church, the warming center is an independent entity. We share with them, we share space. They use our building, but they run operations. So I could have chosen to kind of be cordial, share space. And that's it. Right, right. But I wanted to see what it was all about. Wanted it to be a really a. [00:03:51] Speaker A: Partnership, get right into the trenches and get in there. [00:03:54] Speaker B: And when my church people ask questions, I wanted to be able to say, well, I've been there. [00:03:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:04:00] Speaker B: And so. And they do, they ask a lot of questions. I've got a very inquisitive congregation. They are good listeners and good awes, good at asking questions. So because of being a part of that, wanting to know what was going on, I say that it found me because I could have stopped. I could have been okay, I've done, I've learned, got enough information. [00:04:21] Speaker A: I saw what I needed to. [00:04:22] Speaker B: That's it. Yeah. But instead I found that it was, it was a really cool ministry to be a part of. I really, really enjoyed it. We live in the church behind or the house? The house behind the church. So we live. When on the Elevate yoga podcast, they talked about the fishbowl. We have less windows and more window coverings, but we're in the middle of everything. [00:04:48] Speaker A: Right. Especially like after the warming center had closed this winter, there was quite a few people that hung out around the backside of this. So you were right there. [00:04:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And when we first moved into that house, I was really bummed because there's no neighbors. That house is not residential. Right. There's a church, there's landmark and parking lot. And a parking lot. [00:05:08] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:09] Speaker B: And a hotel. And I was like, you know, I would like to have neighbors. But very quickly I learned that we did have neighbors. Yes, we had a lot of neighbors. We had really good neighbors who watch out for us, who ask questions, who talk to us. And I think that kind of eye opening experience is like, oh, we do have neighbors. We have a lot of neighbors. That's what really made me say, okay, I gotta keep doing this and keep being a part of this. [00:05:34] Speaker A: You know, we had just talked about that the other day speaking, which. And I think I put it on a Facebook post that we've had people, you know, Especially with us having difficulties finding a space. You know, people have asked us multiple times, why do you keep going? Why are you keep hitting roadblock after roadblock, but yet you persist? How do you stop? How do you walk away from this? I've met so many amazing people doing this and have heard their stories and they've become very close friends. And how do you walk away from somebody that's already struggling? I can't, you know, so we're just going to keep going and pray for the best, and it will work. Some people think of churches as places people go on Sundays, but a lot of the unhoused folks, churches are warm places, safe spaces, or even places to sleep. How has your community handled this reality? [00:06:31] Speaker B: We've learned a lot. I think that that's the. Like, the word that I say most in my whole life is learn. Especially in this current stage of life. We are learning. We are learning so much. This congregation learned so much when the cafe came here. [00:06:46] Speaker A: Oh, I suppose. [00:06:47] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think that really paved the way. So there were a lot of things we learned through that experience. Warming center elevated that a little bit, but we learned a lot through that. How do we navigate that? Boundaries is another big word that we have. [00:07:06] Speaker A: Have to have boundaries. Absolutely. [00:07:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Making it very clear what we can and cannot do, what. What our space can be, what resources we can provide, what resources we can't provide, where we can send you all of those sorts of things. How we can refer you. Right. So that. A lot of education. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Yes. [00:07:25] Speaker B: Our women's group here has general meetings a couple times a year, and they invite a SPE from the community. You and Kathleen came and spoke to them. That's how I met you all the first time. And we also had the folks from Sheboygan Area School district for the McKinney. [00:07:42] Speaker A: McKinney Vento. [00:07:43] Speaker B: Yes. McKinney Vento group come. And so a lot of education because once our congregation can understand a little bit better who these people might be, what they might be facing the realities in our. In our very community. Not just. Not in general, but here. Right here. What does it look like on seventh in Ontario? [00:08:05] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:07] Speaker B: That was really helpful. The other thing that we have really done is put a high focus on relationship which this congregation that I didn't do, that I will not claim really any credit for that. They're good at it. They're good at some churches. You walk in on Sunday and you don't get a hello. [00:08:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:26] Speaker B: It's not the culture of that church. Right. That happens. This church we Have a visitor and somebody comes and says hello. And it doesn't matter who they are, which is amazing. It's beautiful. [00:08:36] Speaker A: Right. Well, that truly shows welcome atmosphere. [00:08:40] Speaker B: And we. We have unhoused folks come on Sunday. And so that's been a practicing and a learning and it's say hello. [00:08:46] Speaker A: And I, you know, I've heard it. And not. Not, I guess, to go against anybody else, but that's one of the things I've heard about here is you are very welcoming to our unhoused peers where some other have not been quite so, you know. Welcoming. [00:09:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's. I mean, it's a hard thing to do. I think this congregation has, like I said, with the cafe, that was a huge building block sort of thing. This congregation has also been pretty involved in Love Inc. For a while where we've transitioned to different ministries. But that was another way of relationship building as alongside outreach and so those sorts of things. Yeah, I think the other. To get back to the main question that you asked me. [00:09:33] Speaker A: Sorry. [00:09:34] Speaker B: No, it's okay. I think I got us off track. But I. We've gotten better about asking what is needed. [00:09:42] Speaker A: Oh, right. [00:09:43] Speaker B: And so when somebody comes into the building, most of the time they hear for the cafe or during the winter, they're here for the warming syndrome, but sometimes they're not. Sometimes they're here cause they're looking for something in particular. And so asking, you know, what do you need? [00:09:57] Speaker A: Right. What can we help you with? [00:09:58] Speaker B: What can we help you with? How can we help get you to the right people? Or is there something we can do right in this moment? And so I think that that has been another learning of not assuming someone needs something in particular. [00:10:14] Speaker A: Right. And that is a huge step. It really is. So kind of a little bit off topic, but not, I guess, have you. With the amount of the unhoused community that we have here. I know this wasn't one of the questions I originally thought, do you catch. I don't want to say catch any flack, but how was the general community towards everybody being here? [00:10:38] Speaker B: I'm going to use the word learning again. It's been a learning experience. And we want to be really good neighbors. [00:10:46] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:47] Speaker B: As a downtown church, as people in Sheboygan, we want to be really good neighbors. And so we've learned some ways to be better neighbors through this experience. We're focused on relationship, trying to have open communication, talking to the churches across the street, talking to the residents at Landmark, talking to Founders Club. Spent a lot of that kind of trying to have open communication. We. We do get noise complaints. I can imagine that's probably our most frequent complaint. We did have a problem with people. [00:11:24] Speaker A: Going to the bathroom outside, but the Porta Potty out there. Awesome. [00:11:28] Speaker B: Yeah. It's amazing. That has solved most of. We were talking about that before. Before this interview. Yeah. And that was one of those things where we were sitting down as a board, and we said, all right, we can't really solve the noise complaint because that's, you know. [00:11:44] Speaker A: Right. They're gonna be hearing, and they're gonna. [00:11:45] Speaker B: Be here, and they're noisy. People are loud. And also, the way that this is. It's like an echo chamber. It's louder than you would think. People don't realize how loud it gets in the. Loud. [00:11:53] Speaker A: With all the concrete and pavement and everything. Yes. [00:11:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Sometimes I come out and I'm like, y' all know everyone can hear? And they're like, oh, like, yeah, go yell in a grass field. It'll be better. Yeah. So anyways, we figured, we don't know how to fix that. Can't do that. However, we had a guy on our board who works construction, and he said, you know, a porta potty's $130 a month. And we said, score. We did not know that. Why would we know that? I'm glad that you know that. [00:12:22] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:23] Speaker B: Mm. And as a board, we said, $130 a month. Somewhere to go to the bathroom. [00:12:30] Speaker A: Somebody peeing in the bushes. [00:12:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. We were like, that sounds easy enough. [00:12:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:35] Speaker B: And we said, you know what? Let's try it, because we did have some concerns. Okay. Now, are we making it a place to stay? [00:12:42] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:42] Speaker B: We had that concern. And we said, well, let's see. Is it a contract Called the Porta Potty Company? They said, no, it's no contract. You cancel at any time. We said, great, let's try it for a month. [00:12:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:12:54] Speaker B: And so that was our. Let's be good neighbors. Let's figure this out. And also, it's a huge dignity thing. [00:13:00] Speaker A: Oh, it is. [00:13:01] Speaker B: It's huge. And if you've walked around downtown Treboygan at night, no matter who you are, there's not a lot of bathrooms. [00:13:09] Speaker A: There sure isn't. [00:13:10] Speaker B: Especially if you're down at the beach. You know, they lock a lot of those bathrooms at night. So we have found that it's actually been more than the unhoused population who are using that Porta Potty. It gets cleaned and completely sprayed out and disinfected once a week, restocked and everything so it's very clean. But we do have. We have construction workers who are at a site that doesn't have a porta potty. We have folks who are like, truckers sometimes will stop through. It just. It happens. Right. Somebody who's making a delivery, garbage truck, folks, stuff like that. So. [00:13:41] Speaker A: Solved a huge problem. [00:13:42] Speaker B: It solved a huge problem. It solved, I think, 90% of our complaints. Because noise is something people can tolerate, people can learn from. And every time I talk to people, I remind them that, you know, there's happy noises. And sometimes those sound the same. [00:13:56] Speaker A: Yes. [00:13:57] Speaker B: As yelling noises. Like, sometimes this is just people walking through the parking lot having a good time. [00:14:01] Speaker A: Right. [00:14:01] Speaker B: It's loud. So we've talked about those sorts of things. But the. The bathroom thing, that was. That was. How do we be good neighbors? [00:14:09] Speaker A: That is awesome. [00:14:10] Speaker B: And it's. It's been great. It's. I tell other churches now all the time. I'm like, do you know how much this cost? [00:14:16] Speaker A: Right? [00:14:16] Speaker B: 130. It's not that much. I mean, you break it down by week. What, that's like 30 bucks, 35 bucks. [00:14:23] Speaker A: That's easy enough to do. [00:14:24] Speaker B: Mm. So, yeah. So the question was, right, about kind of what does it look like in the community? And so that's one side of it. The other side of it is the sheer number of thank yous. We get. [00:14:36] Speaker A: Wow. [00:14:36] Speaker B: We hear all the time. Walking through the grocery store. I'm at a community event. People say, I'm so glad you guys said yes. [00:14:47] Speaker A: That is awesome. [00:14:48] Speaker B: So you get both this. [00:14:51] Speaker A: Right. This really is. You know, and we're not from here either. So, you know, we weren't sure how this was going to be received or anything. This is truly an amazing community. You know, we do catch a lot of the flip side of that as well. But more often than not, it's. It's like you had said the thank yous. It's amazing what you guys are doing. You know, we really appreciate that somebody has stepped up to do this. It really is an amazing community. I truly love being here. [00:15:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:20] Speaker A: And we've been welcomed pretty good, so it's all right. [00:15:22] Speaker B: Mm. [00:15:25] Speaker A: What's one thing you wish more people understood about the connection between homelessness and faith? [00:15:32] Speaker B: I wish they understood that a lot of homeless people are Christians. [00:15:37] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:15:38] Speaker B: That's a huge one. [00:15:39] Speaker A: It is. [00:15:40] Speaker B: I think there's an assumption that they. That the unhoused folks, homeless folks, that they don't have faith or that, you know, there's this whole kind of like the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Right. And your higher being need, your need for that sort of thing is way higher than your need on this pyramid for food. And so it's like, oh, well, if you're worried about that, then how can. But that's, that's a, that's a false dichotomy. Right. It's not real. [00:16:06] Speaker A: Yes. [00:16:07] Speaker B: You need all of those things all at the same time. And we've talked about that as a congregation. That's been a learning of like, how can we do multiple parts of that and not just kind of zoom in on one. Right. So I think that to me is remembering that they are also Christian, many of them, or of some faith. Right? Yes, we're a Christian church, so that's who we're kind of thinking about. I think the other connection with faith. Well, there's a lot. Often we heard when we have folks kind of hanging around the building, we hear that's not a good look. That wasn't a good look. And we responded, well, we think it looks like the church should look. [00:16:53] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:53] Speaker B: You know, we, we think it looks like Jesus. We think it looks like we have a roof, so maybe you should be under it. We have a porta potty, so you should use it. We have a bench. You should use it. [00:17:06] Speaker A: We're here to help people. You know, that, that's, that's what we're supposed to do. [00:17:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And you know, each church can, can find their place. [00:17:14] Speaker A: Right? [00:17:15] Speaker B: We're still working on finding our place. We're learning all the things. But that, that part of it and then the kind of, the final part of it has been really about access to, to church. [00:17:28] Speaker A: Right. [00:17:29] Speaker B: The connection between faith and homelessness. Right. We have folks that come in on Sunday morning. A couple of them. No, no. Nobody that comes regularly. But folks come in and out and, and we welcome and we talk, we invite them to our coffee hour, hang out. Some of them are folks that I know that I've interacted with before. Sometimes somebody just comes wandering in and I don't know their story, I don't know anything about them. And we welcome them and chat and hang out. But I don't know, I think you've been in our sanctuary. [00:18:00] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:00] Speaker B: It's a little intimidating. [00:18:02] Speaker A: It could be, uh huh. [00:18:03] Speaker B: If you're, if you're unfamiliar with like a high chair, we have a, we have a beautiful sanctuary. Oh, it is, it's beautiful. It's got stained glass, it's got organ pipes that are amazing. If you come on a Sunday, not during the summer I'm wearing the full robe. You know, we're. We're doing. We look like church in. In that particular way. And I think that's very intimidating for anyone. [00:18:28] Speaker A: Oh. [00:18:29] Speaker B: If it's. If it's new to you, if it's not familiar, but if you don't have regular access to new clothes, if you don't have regular access to a shower, if you don't have regular access to those sorts of things, it's even more. [00:18:43] Speaker A: Intimidating or knowing that many of the places that our peers go to, they're not welcome. You know, so that in and of itself is. Would set that apprehension level. You know, do I walk in? Am I welcome? You know, what's gonna happen if I walk in? Are they gonna tell me, get out? [00:19:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:00] Speaker A: You know, so that. Right. [00:19:03] Speaker B: Mm. Yeah. And we've worked a lot with our congregation about assumptions, which. And I've repeated this. I'll keep repeating it. This is work that was happening much before me, and this is many other. This. The church is the body of Christ. The church is the people, and those people here have been doing that work, but of not assuming. So somebody walks in on Sunday morning, I have no idea where they came from. I have no idea. I mean, some of them I know because I know who they are. But just because you walk in wearing jeans and a T shirt doesn't mean I assume you're homeless. [00:19:38] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:40] Speaker B: And, you know, people. A backpack, a wagon, things that we talk about. Right. Instead, you know, it's like, oh, are you looking for church? Is that what you're here for? We have people come in who are looking for the cafe, and the cafe is not open on Sunday. [00:19:54] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:55] Speaker B: And so it's about learning how to ask, what are you looking for? Rather than, there's no lunch today. Right. So trying to figure out how to do that, that. How to make it a space where anyone really can come if they. If this is the kind of church they want. You know, we're. We're Methodists. We're a particular kind. If that's what you are looking for, if you want to be a part of that kind of church, how can we make it so that you can walk in the door regardless of what your clothes look like, regardless of what you're carrying with you or what your. [00:20:26] Speaker A: Background is or where you've come from and. [00:20:29] Speaker B: And kind of those sorts of things? And so that's been another thing that we've been. I've been thinking a lot about and working on, and when I was volunteering at the warming center, people would say, oh, you're the pastor. I'd say, yes. And they would ask when services were, and I told them. And we would talk about what it's like. [00:20:47] Speaker A: Right. [00:20:48] Speaker B: So that they know exactly. You walk in at 9am what does it look like for the next hour? And that, I think, was a huge thing. [00:20:56] Speaker A: And that would ease a whole lot of tension. [00:20:59] Speaker B: Mm. And that's for anybody I do that. People come into my office, and they're like, I'm thinking about coming to church here. Like, well, let's go to the sanctuary. [00:21:05] Speaker A: Let's go for a walk. [00:21:05] Speaker B: Yeah. I'll show you which door you should come in. I'll show you where the bathroom is. All of these things. And so in that connection between being in house, being homeless, and faith, it's another one of those, how do we just be radically welcoming? Because if we're welcoming to any particular group, the more welcome, it widens it for everybody. It's like the universal design for learning sort of thing, which I'm sure you're familiar with as a teacher. If you serve as broad as you can, then it makes it better for everybody. [00:21:36] Speaker A: It does. You know, and we do much the same thing, or we try to at the center. And it's not my place to judge who you are or where you come from or why you're here. We're just here to help you. And that's what I get from you. And that's. Our peers, too, have said much the same thing. And so we thank you. And I'm quite sure they do as well. Have there been moments when your faith was tested while doing this kind of work? [00:22:07] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [00:22:10] Speaker A: I can only imagine. [00:22:15] Speaker B: Mostly. Well, let's see. Has my faith been tested? My faith in God? No. My faith in the people around me and the work that I'm doing? Yes. I. And I think those are, for me, very important to separate. Like, I. I think in moments of that testing, that's when my connection to God grows stronger. But, yes, I. Moments where it's like, oh, did I. Did we make the wrong decision? Did we in a particular thing? [00:22:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:44] Speaker B: You know, did I have a. Is this a bad judgment call? Was this too much? Was our. Were we not ready for this? Do we not know what to do? I would say interactions with police have been very challenging. [00:23:00] Speaker A: Yes. [00:23:01] Speaker B: And we have. In this neighborhood, we have some pretty great officers who are on our beat. Mm. And we do. And we are really working on strengthening those. But that can be really hard because we're coming from such different places. [00:23:14] Speaker A: Very much so. And they deal with them on a totally different side than we would. [00:23:18] Speaker B: Yes. Mm. And have different roles and all of the things. Right. So that's been a challenging thing. Sometimes the complaints from community members have been challenging because we want to be good neighbors, and we are trying to figure out how to do that. And it can be very easy to get overly defensive very quickly. [00:23:48] Speaker A: Yes. [00:23:49] Speaker B: And so some of those conversations have been challenging, as I remember that, you know, as a pastor and in my personal faith, I want. I want to be there for. For learning and for development and for. Okay, where are you coming from? What. What. Why is this challenging for you? What's happening? Right. And so kind of. And sometimes those. You know, when it's over and over again. Well, they were yelling or over and over again. They peed behind the dumpster. Like, those sorts of things. They can get really frustrating. And they add up. [00:24:22] Speaker A: They do. [00:24:23] Speaker B: Mm. And it's like the first time somebody says something. Okay, whatever. But it's like the fifth time somebody's come to me and said, they're peeing behind the dumpster. [00:24:29] Speaker A: I know. [00:24:30] Speaker B: And it's like, sometimes I think, well, they who? [00:24:34] Speaker A: Right? [00:24:35] Speaker B: They who? What do you mean, they? Could it be. It. You don't know who they are? [00:24:39] Speaker A: Could be just somebody walking by, going, hey, there's a spot behind a dumpster. [00:24:42] Speaker B: Mm. Mm. Yeah. There's not bathrooms. [00:24:45] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Oh, I thought I could make it home. [00:24:47] Speaker A: Nope, not happening. [00:24:48] Speaker B: Right. So some of those, I would say, I do. It's also. It's tough. Right. You never know what you're gonna get in a conversation. I've had a lot of conversations with folks doing this work about, you know, you never gonna know which. You know, whichever person you're gonna. You never know which one you're gonna get sometimes. [00:25:09] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:25:10] Speaker B: And so it's like, you know, on Tuesday, you have a great conversation. Maybe you've had a conversation about a boundary or something, or just you've sat and chatted. And then on Wednesday, it's like, who is this? Who is this? What happened? And, okay, this is different. How do I. What do we do next? [00:25:26] Speaker A: Right. Try to meet them, where they're at, you know, but still maintaining those boundaries and still. Yes. [00:25:33] Speaker B: Yeah. So that, you know, and I think the main way that I. That I work with that is, you know, I have my people that I go to that I talk to, and I say, oh, my gosh, I don't know what to do. This the wrong decision. How do we move forward? And Sometimes with humor. Right, right. [00:25:51] Speaker A: Oh, you have to. Absolutely have to. [00:25:53] Speaker B: It's like, oh, my God, did you hear what so and so, what name they called me today? [00:25:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:25:58] Speaker B: So I would say a lot of times the challenges more do come from, not from the unhoused folks, but from the other parts of this. The community, the neighborhood of those things. And it's all part of it because we want to be good neighbors. We want to educate. We want to hear you. We want to hear. Oh, you know, you. This made you feel afraid. Okay, why? How can we make you feel. I think you were safe, but how can we make you feel safe? Like, what? How do we. How do we come together on this? How do we, you know, come over and meet my friend who you are afraid of? Come and say hello to him, and I bet you won't be afraid after a conversation, you know, that sort of thing. [00:26:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's one of the things that I try to say. Hello. A simple hello. When you're walking down the street, don't put your head down. Don't look away, don't cross the street. They don't bite. Say hello. Acknowledge that they exist. You know, I don't know. It gets frustrating sometimes when I hear our peers come in and they tell us about the interactions or lack thereof that they've had with people just walking down the street. It breaks my heart. You know, they're people. They just want somebody to know they're there. I don't know. I get a little emotional when I do this. [00:27:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I get that. [00:27:21] Speaker A: So kind of tying off of that. Well, helping, you know, having to maintain boundaries. So let's talk boundaries. It's easy to burn out in this work. How do you draw the line between serving and saving? [00:27:37] Speaker B: That's a big question. I mean, in all aspects of my job, not just in this one. [00:27:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:27:45] Speaker B: Yeah. I mentioned it before. Having your people. [00:27:48] Speaker A: You have to have your people. [00:27:49] Speaker B: That's a big one. Humor. That's a big one. Last year, I created a. You know how Spotify does? Like, Spotify wrapped. So last year, our ministry year starts July 1st. That's when you get appointed to your church. And so I did a year in ministry, wrapped. And some of those things I shared widely and publicly, and some of those were just for me. [00:28:09] Speaker A: Yep, I get that. [00:28:11] Speaker B: You know, and it's looking back and it's like, oh, that really did happen. This thing that I never imagined I would, you know, Number of times I had to talk about toilet paper, number of times I had to talk about Someone being in the bushes, like, things that I never anticipated. [00:28:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:28] Speaker B: And so. And, you know, and there's been some colorful names I've been called. [00:28:32] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I've had a few. [00:28:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And most of the time, you know, it's like, I've never heard that one. [00:28:40] Speaker A: Right. Where did you get that? You know. [00:28:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Tell me, can you define that? I need that in a sentence. [00:28:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:45] Speaker B: And so, you know, using humor can be really helpful because it's like, what else are you supposed to do? You know, I. I want to be with you. I want to be here. And sometimes you just have to laugh. [00:28:55] Speaker A: That's it. That's all you can do sometimes. [00:28:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think the other thing that is really helping with kind of the burnout or the importance of this work. Right. Is to just continue to be present. [00:29:11] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:12] Speaker B: Because I find that this year on Easter Sunday was. Warming center was still open, so we had lot of activity. We had a sunrise service down at the lake. And then I came back, warming center folks were getting ready to head out of the building. And then we had church at 9am so just a lot going on. Big Sunday. And we had the night before, we had done all these chalk drawings around the church, just like, you know, happy Easter. Just bring some joy and light and some beauty to the sidewalks. And I had had a couple interactions with guests while I was doing that and other neighborhood folks. And one of those conversations was really hard. It was a really hard conversation. It was somebody who wasn't happy with how someone else had treated them. I wasn't even a part of it. It was, you know, that past church hurt an unhoused person who. The church had let them down in some ways. And I don't know the story. I don't know, but all I know is that that was sort of the overarching theme. Right. And was being projected on to me of like, well, why doesn't your church do this? And why doesn't your church do this? And some of it's like, we don't. Can't do that. [00:30:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:31] Speaker B: Right. I can't have my doors open. Can't do it. [00:30:34] Speaker A: There are certain things you just cannot do. [00:30:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, if we could have a volunteer every day, sure. We'd have our sanctuary. We can't. That's not how that's gonna go. Right. And so all the sorts of things in this conversation. And I kind of walked away from it, like, oh, my God. I just. And I took it in. It's like, we're not doing enough. Or, you Know, I'm not doing it in the right way. And then this was the. This was Saturday night, and then Sunday morning, all this activity, just busy, busy, busy. And we had a. Just a plethora of stuff for coffee hour, pastries and whatever, and we made coffee. One of the church members was like, you know, we've got these folks outside. Let's bring them coffee. Let's bring. Bring the stuff we have down. So we brought coffee air down. We brought all the stuff out there. And then my wife and I just went and. And hung out. [00:31:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:31:26] Speaker B: And we took Easter pictures with our neighbors. And it was. I think that was the moment that really I. I made the switch. Right. Of like, okay, we don't. We have neighbors. [00:31:40] Speaker A: Yes, yes, you have neighbors. [00:31:42] Speaker B: We have so many. And we have really, really good neighbors. And we have these beautiful pictures in our Easter finery with our friends in front of the cross in front of the church. And it was like, well, I'm gonna hang on to that. I'm gonna pull that picture up. I'm gonna look at that. In the moments where I'm like, oh, Lord, I don't know where you're leading me, but, okay, here's me and my wife and our friends in front of the cross on Easter Sunday. [00:32:11] Speaker A: It's all for a reason. Absolutely. You know, and they are, you know, like we've said a few times, they're some truly amazing people. I don't know if I'm that resilient and I'm that, you know, to be able to live the way they do and survive. And I don't think I ever want to find out. [00:32:34] Speaker B: Yeah. One thing that we have talked over and over again at our church and in community meetings, as we're trying to do this education, is how very easy it is. It is to become homeless. [00:32:48] Speaker A: We talk about often that everybody is one crisis away from being in that same predicament. Somebody's crisis may need to be bigger than mine. I'm just a school teacher, you know, but. But one crisis away, and we'd all in the same spot. And I think a lot of people. And I think that's where a lot of the. I don't want to say frustration or a lot of the stigma that comes at people fear that they know that, you know, it's in the back of their head, and they know that something happens. They could be right there with them, and that just scares the jeepers out of them, and they don't know how to handle that, so they avoid it, at least in My mind, that's the way I make it up, that it makes sense. I don't know if that is the case or not. [00:33:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that makes sense. Fear abounds in so many different forms and I think that to me that makes sense. [00:33:40] Speaker A: It seemed to. Have you ever wanted to say no when your heart wanted to say yes? [00:33:48] Speaker B: Every day. [00:33:50] Speaker A: Yes. [00:33:50] Speaker B: Well, maybe not every day. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Pretty close. [00:33:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. I, you know, maybe this is a crazy thing to say on this podcast, but we live in a four bedroom house, the house that the church owns. My wife and I, there's two of us and our two cats. We live in a four. If you, I mean, you can see our eyes right next to the church, you walk by. It's an enormous house. It's a beautiful house. We love it. We feel incredibly grateful. We could never afford a house like that as two 26 year olds. It's crazy, but it's an amazing resource and we feel really grateful. And we, sometimes we look around and we go, okay, we've got four bedrooms, right? And it just, it's, it's. In our end, we're like, okay, we can't do that, right? We know that's not, that's the first rule. [00:34:43] Speaker A: Ben or Dunn not tried that. It doesn't work. [00:34:46] Speaker B: Don't do it. Right? There's other ways that we could fill those spaces if we thought that was yes. When we're ready for that, right? But. So that's kind of in our brain. It's like, okay, but what else can we think about? What are other things that we have that, that we can do when we hold that boundary while we figure these things out? And all the time I'm like, ah, you know what, who needs 50 bucks? Like who, what person who would 50 bucks make a huge difference? Difference for. How do we figure that out? So those sorts of things that are kind of going around in my brain constantly, right, Trying to figure out what do we do with the space we have, the resources we have. But frequently the wanting to say, to say yes is, you know, people come here and they say, the church office, it's a church office. It doesn't matter what you got going on. If you have no ministries in your building, if your church office is open, people who need resources are gonna call and they're gonna stop by. [00:35:43] Speaker A: Yes, they will. [00:35:44] Speaker B: And all the time we have people come in and they say, you know, I need, I'm short on rent, you know, I need, I'm out of gas, these sorts of things. And sometimes we can make it happen. [00:35:54] Speaker A: Right. [00:35:55] Speaker B: Depends. Totally depends. Sometimes we can make it happen, other times we can't. And every time we can't, it hurts. [00:36:04] Speaker A: It does. [00:36:05] Speaker B: It hurts. And sometimes I'm like, no. I'm saying no because this is an important boundary, and we need to kind of work on this sometimes. I'm saying no because we genuinely assist. Not. It's not reality. That's not gonna happen. The times when it's not, what, if I had a million dollars, I could make it happen. That hurts much more. Yeah, it's very difficult. [00:36:28] Speaker A: And we get those phone calls, too. And we don't have the funding to be able to do. We're just a generous community is what keeps our doors open, is what keeps us going. You know, we don't get government grants. We don't get anything like that. We don't have that kind of funding to help. You know, we do bus passes and whatever, other resources, but we can't give gas cards. We can't help out with utilities or rent or stuff. And I would love to. I would love to say absolutely here. I know you're struggling. I know, you know, it's hard here. Let us help. We can't. [00:36:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I'm like, I wish I could walk you over to supportive housing. I wish. You know, I look at some of the folks that I talk to on a regular basis, and I'm like, oh, if you had a caseworker and a bed. [00:37:12] Speaker A: Yes. [00:37:14] Speaker B: In six months, like, in three months, maybe you'd be. It'd be different. [00:37:19] Speaker A: Absolutely. Entirely different scenario. [00:37:23] Speaker B: And so it's things like that, too, where it's like, how do we get the infrastructure? How do we make that happen? Like, that's not something I can do. But how can we, as a community, collectively help? We need this. How can we say, okay, we need this? It's probably gonna be in a residential area. How can we get the residents on board? How can we get the neighbor? How can we work with the neighborhood association and that. [00:37:47] Speaker A: It's funny that. Because that's what we run into now with us looking for another space. And we get the. You know, I truly love what you're doing. I think it's amazing. You guys are doing super work, but do it over there. We don't want you in our neighborhood. And it's frustrating, you know. [00:38:05] Speaker B: Yeah. That's where that. And that fear and it's. And, you know, I. I will admit I moved here from Atlanta. Different kind of homeless population. Oh, yeah, very different. But, man, when I moved To Atlanta. I was scared. [00:38:22] Speaker A: I can't imagine. [00:38:23] Speaker B: I wouldn't go downtown at night. And then I had friends who were like, what are you talking about? Just come downtown. And they were like, oh, no, you know, that's Steve and that. Whatever. Like, I was like, oh, that's crazy. These are just people, right? Whoa. [00:38:38] Speaker A: Funny how that works. [00:38:39] Speaker B: Brain explodes. Of course I knew that, but I. [00:38:41] Speaker A: Didn'T, you know, that's that whole unknown thing. [00:38:44] Speaker B: It's the unknown. And it was like, oh, I actually don't have to be afraid. I have to be smart. You know, I'm not gonna walk alone. [00:38:51] Speaker A: At 1am and know your surroundings and know what's going on. [00:38:53] Speaker B: Know my surroundings. I gotta pay attention to what I'm doing. And then I moved to Sheboygan. Completely different. Different scenario. My wife and I always talk about, we're like, man, we got the nicest homeless people in this town. [00:39:03] Speaker A: Right? [00:39:05] Speaker B: I never get said hello to more than I have in this town. And it's. How do we, how do what my friends did in Atlanta that were like, hey, no, just, just come with me and I will show you that this is good. Just fine. And so how can we do that, right? How can we say, okay, you know, like, I, it really helps that we live behind the church. Gives me a lot of credibility, I suppose, because I. People are like, oh, this happened. I'm like, it did. That's crazy because I was here. I don't think that happened. [00:39:38] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:39:39] Speaker B: I don't remember that. I'm not here all the time. Right. But that helped. And, and to be able to say when someone says to me, oh, this person, and I can say, oh, Steve. I mean, that's a made up name, right? But I, I know that person. Yeah, Steve, he's pretty great. You should talk to him about. Insert thing. Right? And so I don't know how we got on that. Neighbors, right? So, yeah. So how can we keep doing that? And to me it really has been just like, oh, you have a question or concern. I would love for you to talk to this person right here. Because they're my friend and we have a good time. I learn from them and you know, and then I can tell them also, okay, this is who you're afraid of, Right? It's not that you're unsafe, it's that you feel unsafe. [00:40:28] Speaker A: Yes. Your perception of safety is. Yes. You know, and I think too, one of the things I love about here, we have enough organizations and enough people working together collectively to try to, I Don't know if we're ever going to fix it, but at least make an impact on it. You know, we work very closely with Liz at the warming center and with you here. And, you know, we work with Lakeshore Cap and everybody else in Housing Coalition, and we're all working on the same goal to try to. Try to. I don't know if we're ever going to. Like I said, I don't know if we're ever going to be able to fix it, but we're going to try awful hard in the process. Faith often talks about loving people as they are. How do you show love when people are in crisis or when they might be using or lashing out or struggling to receive that love? [00:41:21] Speaker B: Boundaries. Boundaries is the number one word there. And that's a learning. That's a big learning that we've had. I would say that one way that we kind of love people the way they are is we really think about time and place. And so there are folks that come into our building, and sometimes I have to say, nope, we're gonna go right back outside. And so far, we have not run into an issue. When that's been. They. They say, okay, right. We walk outside sometimes. It takes a moment, but, yep, the other way some. There was a gentleman who came in for church. He stayed for church. And then after church, I was running around somewhere, and someone was like, oh, someone's looking for you. And I walked up and I was like, nope, not today. Today is not an inside day for you. Today's an outside day for you. [00:42:17] Speaker A: You have to have those boundaries. You know, as much our peers and givers have to have boundaries because takers have none. You know, and we have to remember that because they will keep taking. And I love them dearly, don't get me wrong. [00:42:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:35] Speaker A: And I guess it's probably the same thing in every walk of life, you. [00:42:38] Speaker B: Know, you got takers of who wear every kind of clothes and have every kind of tax bracket. [00:42:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, so you just got to have those boundaries. [00:42:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, right. So I walked this gentleman out the door. I got him some water, and we. We sat outside for a moment. We prayed together. He asked for a prayer. And then I went back inside, went on about the rest of my day, and I, you know, I'll see him the next day. Could be completely different. [00:43:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:43:06] Speaker B: Could be a perfectly good inside day. Come on up to coffee hour. Let's, you know, hang out, whatever. Right. So boundaries, I think expectations is the other one right. You know, they say often, right. If you have low expectations, people will meet them. And, of course, every person is different. But one of the ways that I think our faith calls us to love one another is to say that you were created by God, and you were created good. The way that you are is good. And I expect that we're going to be able to work together. [00:43:42] Speaker A: Right? [00:43:43] Speaker B: That we're going to be able to say, okay, you were created good. Let's be good together. Some days, time and place. Some days they're not ready. Some days it's like, okay, I think you need to take a walk. You need to go elsewhere. And sometimes it's like, okay, what. How can we make this work? You want to come to church? Here? What does that look like? You want to sit on the bench in front of the church waiting for the cafe to open? What does that look like for you? How do we make this work for you? Or does this not work? [00:44:10] Speaker A: Right? [00:44:11] Speaker B: It might not work. It might not work right now, or it might not work in this current moment in two hours, but that doesn't. [00:44:17] Speaker A: Mean it's not always going to work. [00:44:19] Speaker B: Doesn't mean it's not always going to work. And so very situational. And I think that's the whole. Loving people for who they are. As I have gotten to know our peers, as I've gotten to know the guests, there are some where I'm happy. Go up to him, talk to him, whatever. There's some where it's like, okay, I got to make an assessment. I got to think about what's going on around me. How much time do I have? Is this an appropriate time to have this conversation? You know what. What is going on in your brain today? Is there a substance? Is there a something like that? And we just. And again, that's where the humor comes in. Sometimes. Sometimes it's not the right time and place for them. I have to walk them off the property, and they bring out some colorful names. [00:45:08] Speaker A: Oh, they do. [00:45:09] Speaker B: Mm. And then the next day, they're like, I'm sorry. [00:45:12] Speaker A: Right? I've had a couple. Did I really do that yesterday? Yes, you did. I'm so sorry. I was like, yeah, we're good. [00:45:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And sometimes even right in the moment, I'm walking them off the property. Like, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done that. Like, yes, you should not have done that. We're gonna try again tomorrow, right? [00:45:28] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:45:30] Speaker B: And that's. That's the. Loving them for who they are is that. You know what? You come back Tomorrow we'll try this again. Or sometimes you come back next week or, you know, each person has. We've learned, we're doing a lot of learning and getting to know and relationship building to say, okay, and we did. [00:45:49] Speaker A: That at the start. We tweaked our rules several times because we learned, you know, thinking, well, we can, we can, we can allow this. And you're like, no, we can't do that. You know, by that point though, usually you get somebody. But we could, we could do this. And like, not anymore. [00:46:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. There's the whole fairness thing. And you're like, life's not fair. It isn't, it's not fair. Sorry. [00:46:11] Speaker A: Right. It is what it is. What role do you think the faith community can and should play in homelessness? In solving homelessness, rather. [00:46:24] Speaker B: Solving homelessness, man, big question. [00:46:27] Speaker A: I know that. That's a, you know. [00:46:29] Speaker B: Oh, man. I. Well, there's this thing that they say about pastors. They say you have four sermons and that pretty much every one of your sermons is one of these four. Right. Each pastor has their own four. And I'm new, so I don't know what my four are yet, but now what one of them is. And one of them is that we don't do it alone. The original design, God created humans. And God said, it's not good for you to be alone. You're not supposed to be able to do it alone. And so I think that's number one that churches can do is we can remind one another over and over again that you're not supposed to do alone. And you can't do it alone. And when you try to do it alone, it doesn't work. [00:47:10] Speaker A: You're not alone. We all need somebody at some point. [00:47:14] Speaker B: And the more that we can encourage one another to say, okay, we're not alone. So what does that look like? What in your circle, who do you need to watch out for? Who can you give to? Who is giving to you? What does your community look like? As small or as big as you're looking at that. [00:47:36] Speaker A: I've learned through doing this that it is a very tight knit community. They do look out for one another very much. Because what we find, we see so many people daily. You know, if we don't see somebody for a little while, we're asking, we're going around people going, hey, where's so and so? I haven't seen him. And often, you know, more often than not, thankful we get, oh, I just saw them, they're fine. This and that or other times. It's like, you know, I'm not sure, but I will find out for you. And you know, and then the next day or even later that day, they'll text or something. Found them. It's all good. Thank you. You know, they do have a really close knit community and I like that. [00:48:16] Speaker B: Yes. And the more that we can mirror that community. Right. How can we. Who have our own little houses and we go in and we shut and lock the door. How can we be a community And Right. I think that's the, as you mentioned earlier, Sheboygan. I always tell people this is the biggest small town I've ever lived in. [00:48:32] Speaker A: Oh, it is. [00:48:33] Speaker B: It's Sheboygan's something else. But it's like, oh yeah, my cousin does that or my sister, they married my brother. And you're like, do 10 people live here? [00:48:44] Speaker A: Right. We laugh about that because where we came from in the UP is, I don't know, probably around 10,000 people. Ish. Or so. Maybe a little bit smaller. My hometown is actually a lot smaller than that. Everybody knows what you're up to. You know, typical small town thing. And we come here and I'm thinking, okay, bigger area, you know, come here when nobody knows us. Which didn't last long, but everybody still knows what you're up to. You know, it's just, it's a big, small town is all. [00:49:10] Speaker B: It is, it is, it is. And it's beautiful. [00:49:11] Speaker A: Oh, it is. [00:49:12] Speaker B: Right. And yeah. So I think that's number one is remembering that we don't do it alone. And if we try to do it alone, it's not going to work. And we can extend that within our circles and beyond. How can we live in a way that says I need help? [00:49:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:32] Speaker B: Because if we all say I need help, it becomes a lot easier. [00:49:36] Speaker A: It's not a sign of weakness when you're asking for help, you know, And I think that's what a lot of people, there's that attached to that. You know, if you're asking for help your week, you can't do it. You don't, you're not supposed to do it on your own. You know, we need people. [00:49:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And sometimes it's like, oh man, if you were able to ask for help sooner, right. If we had been able, if we had been able to say to you, hey, you know, sit down and say, do you need help with this? Or modeled. Asking for help. Modeling for kids, modeling for anyone around you that you ask for. Hell. So I think that's a huge part of it. I Think the other one is, is the faith community. You know, the same thing that I'm hearing when people say it's a bad look. Like, what's the look? What? What do you mean it's a bad look? What, what looks bad? Tell me what looks bad? [00:50:25] Speaker A: Right? [00:50:25] Speaker B: I could. Because if it's that there are people outside of the church, that's. I think that's a good look. [00:50:33] Speaker A: I was gonna say I love having people like, you know, to me it. [00:50:35] Speaker B: Feels like we're a good place. People feel safe here. People feel welcome here. [00:50:41] Speaker A: I was gonna say Jackie summed that up very nicely. Last week or last episode that I talked to her. If you're hanging out around my space, that means that I'm doing my part. You think that I'm welcoming and it's a safe place to be. That's awesome. You know, and then she had mentioned too, she said, and it kind of much what you've been hitting on, if there's something that I can do to help you, let us know. Help me to help you. [00:51:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:07] Speaker A: You know, and. And it works. [00:51:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think. I think the final thing I want to bring out. And this is, this is kind of an. This is a preview for my church Finn based listening. But we're gonna be talking a lot about. There's this book, When Helping Hurts. It's been out for a long time and I'm sure it happens in other books, but in this book they talk about doing like kind of resource mapping and how do you figure out what you have? Right. And it's a model of. Specifically When Helping Hurts is about missions. Right. And it's a model for doing missions that says before you say, what do you need? You say, what do you have? And you go to somebody and you say, what are you good at? Right, Right. Okay. You were an electrician before. That's probably a bad example. You need licensing. Right. You were a landscaper. Right. Something a little less volatile. Right. But you know, you're good at landscape. Okay, cool. That's great. How can we maybe get you involved? We have grass. [00:52:01] Speaker A: Right. [00:52:02] Speaker B: Because there's this. When I talk about. We don't do it alone, we talk a lot about asking for help. But how can we give people opportunities to give? Because everybody likes to give. [00:52:13] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [00:52:14] Speaker B: Makes you feel good. You like to be a part of a community. And there are periods of your life where you're probably more of a giver. Periods of life, you're probably more of a taker. And when you're in a Period where you're a taker, not necessarily the taker that we were talking about earlier. Where I keep taking, but in a period of life where you need a. [00:52:30] Speaker A: Lot of help and everybody experiences that. [00:52:32] Speaker B: Everybody experiences that. I talk a lot. I am in a needy phase of life. I'm newly married, I'm new to Sheboygan, I'm new to St. Luke, I'm needy. I'm asking for a lot. And what ways can I give back? Right. In that specific. In this learning sort of thing. And so offering people an opportunity to say, what, what are you good at? What do you like to do? What do you have that you can contribute? Not in like a. You have to, but in a, in a, in a dignifying. We all have something to add. Sort of the idea of the body of Christ. Right. That each part is important. You can't, can't do without any. All the parts together is the best body of Christ. And so I think that's another way that the faith community can work with homelessness is to really find out what people have to add and hear about it. Give them a space to do the thing that they're good at. [00:53:31] Speaker A: Absolutely. And then that just leads to more, you know, it leads to higher self esteem, everything else. And that just increases. That takes you to the next step or the next level and it makes you want to do more, you know, so it, it's a win everywhere you go. So before we wrap this up, I guess is there a particular verse, prayer or teaching that guides you on how to do this? [00:53:58] Speaker B: I've thrown a couple out there, you know, one of one of my four sermons. You don't do this alone. [00:54:04] Speaker A: Right. [00:54:04] Speaker B: And that comes, you know, right in Genesis, Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, that when God created humanity, God said, it's not good to be alone. God called us good and then said, but it's not good to be alone. You are good. You are complete. You need other people. In your need for other people, that's your completeness. So I would say that is a huge one. Because remembering that people were created good number one. And then I think, you know, the Beatitudes, blessed are the poor, blessed are the meek, those sorts of those, you know, they will inherit the earth. How do we be with them? And I think also the poor will always be with you. Sort of, you know, that's biblical language. I wouldn't use those words in talking to other people. But they're always be with you. And, and what are you supposed to do about that? [00:55:02] Speaker A: Right? [00:55:03] Speaker B: How, how are you with folks? How are you? And poor. Poor means a lot of things, I've heard. You know, poverty means not having any friends, right? That's true. Poverty. Right in the true. Because if you had friends, wouldn't matter what your bank account looked like. That's it, right? [00:55:21] Speaker A: That's it. [00:55:22] Speaker B: If you had the full network, you know, and that's not always true. Like this. This is a. This is a broad generalization, right? But that connections and friendship and community help you move up, help you lift up, help fill in the gaps. When we're one crisis away, who can swoop in during that crisis and carry us through? So, you know, what does it mean that the poor, we will always have the poor with us? And what is our role to say, okay, you're with us and you're us, and we are you. We're all together. What's the next step? [00:55:55] Speaker A: Right. Awesome. Was there anything else you wanted to add before I wrap this up, or. [00:56:04] Speaker B: No, I think I've talked enough. Pastors, they don't stop talking. [00:56:09] Speaker A: You know, that's all right. Service rooted in faith can be powerful, but it's also personal and sometimes messy. What matters is that it's real, and it shows up week after week to every person of faith, to every congregation doing good work, to every volunteer who opens the door or serves a meal. We see you. Thanks for listening to Sheboygan stories on Housed and Unheard. You can find more episodes@sheboygan areapayitforward.org or wherever you get your podcast. Until next time, keep listening, keep loving, and keep paying it forward. [00:56:48] Speaker B: Sam.